Fsusa to start spectro-analysis of e-juice?

[SimpleSins]

Darn, where was this thread when I was talked into using FSUSA for my very first juice order?

I dunno what to think. Not interested in getting wrapped up in much of the arguing. I can say from a few years in the automotive industry that yeah, OSHA is only there to check the working environment for the benefit of the employees. They don't monitor the mechanics to make sure we are putting wheel lug nuts on to proper tightness so wheels don't fall off when the customer drives away or anything like that relating to the service the customer gets. So if FSUSA did indeed try to act like their OSHA certification meant anything in terms of the quality or safety of the juice they're selling.... that's a shady statement to make.

Oh well, too late now, got an order for 80mill of various juices already coming to me. Hopefully I survive lol. Do any vendors out there have a completely diacetyl free product line, or at least mark which flavors might be affected in their online store?

Yes, it's a shady point with the OSHA thing.

There are several that say they are diacetyl free. Backwoods Brew and Vapor Renu off the top of my head; Pure Vapes has diacetyl in some flavors but notes on the ordering page which ones those are. There are a couple of others and I'll try to find the list I made of them. Kind of look out for anything with FlavourArt flavorings because of the major flavoring agents, they're the only ones right now using diacetyl (Capella, Perfumers Apprentice, LorAnn).

 

[Panini]

Darn, where was this thread when I was talked into using FSUSA for my very first juice order?

I dunno what to think. Not interested in getting wrapped up in much of the arguing. I can say from a few years in the automotive industry that yeah, OSHA is only there to check the working environment for the benefit of the employees. They don't monitor the mechanics to make sure we are putting wheel lug nuts on to proper tightness so wheels don't fall off when the customer drives away or anything like that relating to the service the customer gets. So if FSUSA did indeed try to act like their OSHA certification meant anything in terms of the quality or safety of the juice they're selling.... that's a shady statement to make.

Oh well, too late now, got an order for 80mill of various juices already coming to me. Hopefully I survive lol. Do any vendors out there have a completely diacetyl free product line, or at least mark which flavors might be affected in their online store?

BlackMetal, if you are looking for more information about diacetyl, diacetyl alternatives (some may be risky as well), and responses from vendors, I suggest doing a forum search for "diacetyl" and reading through some of the threads. You have to sift through a lot of...er...passionate responses, and some of them are an absolute marathon to get through, but there is a lot of good info there also.

 

[iggyLover]

I'm not on any side of the fence here, but I know many vendors that sell eliquid with "custard" flavors..

Taken for Perfumers Apprentice

Vanilla Custard Ingredients in Flavors >> Return



I have received some calls from customers who wish to learn a bit more about some of the ingredients used in flavors.

Specifically, there are 2 ingredients that have people curious.

Acetyl propionyl and acetoin.

Both of these ingredients are replacements for diacetyl, which is no longer being used by many (but not all) flavor manufacturers. There are some who still include diacetyl in their flavors, but it is not in any of the flavors we offer. Athough acetyl propionyl and acetoin are still regarded as safe for use in Food Flavors, there are studies being done as to whether there are problems with inhalation. I am no expert by any means on sensitivity and safety issues, I simply provide flavors that are Food Safe, but when customers call me with questions, I try to help in any way i can.

Any time you have a flavor that has a vanilla-custardy type note to it, it will have one or both of acetyl propionyl and acetoin. There is also the possibility that there will be Diacetyl, (but NOT in our flavors).

The flavor notes of these two are rather obvious, and once a person learns how to recognize them, they are rather easy to “spot”. Just like once you know what cinnamon tastes like, you can usually tell if a cocoa recipe has cinnamon in it just by taste!

Our vanilla custard is a good example. Pretty much by definition, a vanilla custard flavor, no matter who makes it, will have both acetoin and acetyl propionyl in it. Just like it would be hard to bake a cinnamon cookie with no cinnamon, it would be really hard (pretty much impossible) to create a vanilla custard flavor with no acetoin or acetyl propionyl.

If you would like to learn a bit how to tell the differences, you can compare our Vanilla Custard (which has both acetoin and acetyl propionyl), with our Vanilla Bean Ice Cream. The Vanilla Bean Ice cream does not have any acetoin in it, but otherwise is the same flavor as the Vanilla Custard. So by tasting the two, you can learn to taste the difference between them and learn what acetoin “brings to the party”. I like to experiment by tasting flavors in Cool Whip! This is a good way to learn about ingredients. Remember that both Acetoin and Acetyl Propionyl are perfectly safe for food-use, so there is absolutely no problem at all with tasting these flavors in Cool Whip or water or any other food.

You can request as an educational sample a version of Vanilla bean ice cream which has no acetyl propionyl in it either. That way by comparing it with the regular Vanilla Bean Ice Cream you could learn what acetyl propionyl adds to flavors. We are planning to offer an alternative Vanilla Bean Ice Cream with the acetoin and Acetyl Propionyl removed, but for now you can request a sample by putting a note in the Comments Section of the View Cart and Checkout page

Then you can taste our original French Vanilla Flavor, which has neither acetoin nor acetyl propionyl, and compare with our French Vanilla Deluxe, which has both of them. You can see how the two flavors are different.

By learning how to recognize these flavor components, you will be more able to recognize them in flavors by other manufacturers too!

Sometimes only a little bit of these "custardy" notes are added, just as a subtle nuance. For example our waffle has a little bit, but not nearly as much as the Vanilla Custard.

So to help people, we are marking the main flavors that we know contain these two ingredients, so that if you choose you can avoid them altogether!
Unfortunately, we might not know of all the flavors that may contain tiny "trace" amounts, but we marked them as best we know.

 

[Scottitude]

I think we can all learn from each other...

Scott... share your thoughts... why do you feel this is a witch hunt?

Good question, Zen, thank you for asking.

When I first read the OSHA post and David's responses to some of the questions people posed, I too saw some inconsistencies and some points that in my mind, raised some doubts or probably more accurately, curiosity.

As I continued to follow the discussions, I decided however skeptical I may be, to adopt a "wait and see" attitude. Seemed like a logical approach to unfamiliar subject matter.

At the same time, as I've stated elsewhere, I smoked for decades knowing that I was causing my body great harm but even though the risks were great, still chose to continue smoking. I didn't start vaping because I thought it was safe, I started vaping because I thought it would be less harmful. Maybe I'm deluding myself but with or without dactyl in some random juice I may buy, I still believe it's less harmful to vape than to smoke.

I will admit, I am scientifically uniformed but based on my physiological reaction to diesel emissions, for example, I believe they are far more damaging to my respiratory and central nervous systems than anything I've experienced vaping. I feel this way about many toxins we have little if any means to eliminate form our lives.

I researched diacetyl and found that while some people can be affected by lower levels of exposure (just like PG, a very common and accepted juice ingredient), the majority of the health problems were experienced by those with extreme and constant exposure in industrial settings. That put diatetyl relatively low on my list of concerns and made it seem more like the FDA's "anit-freeze" scare-mongering than a legitimate concern so I gave the folks at FSUSA the benefit of the doubt and decided to wait and see what information they can determine and how much of that they share.

Since it's very common for people with PG allergies to vape VG-based juices, I would think the logical approach for anyone concerned about diacetyl is to simply get juice they were more comfortable using, juice that felt less harmful.

In my mind, the efforts described by FSUSA are a step in the right direction and if successful, and, giving them the benefit of the doubt, will enable them to let us know their diacetyl content more accurately than even Flavor Art discloses along with any other chemicals that be cause for concern.

If these concerns were legitimate and not vendor-biased, thread titles and discussions would focus on the industry as a whole and perhaps even list all "questionable" vendors. Instead, everything I've seen so far is directed solely at FSUSA.

I'll be honest, I don't know which suppliers may or may not use or disclose diacetyl content but I have to believe FSUSA isn't the only one. If that's the case, then singling out FSUSA is, in my mind, a witch-hunt. Folks can say "he started it with his OSHA thread or testing plans but the fact of the matter is, a consistent number of individuals began drawing and continue to draw premature conclusions about FSUSA's motivation, intentions, and integrity, and attack them for what may end up taking the entire industry to the next level.

I may be naive and wrong and if I am I'll join the bandwagon, but until the facts are available, I refuse to speculate about the character or intentions of someone I don't know. I'm satisfied to take David at his word and wait and see what he learns and what he shares.

 

[Zen~]

Scott, There is a lot of truth in what you're saying, especially your comment that you vape NOT because it is safe, but because it is SAFER, and that's a critical distinction, in my mind.

I've engaged in several discussions with people that are all up in arms about the FDA wanting to ban eCigs, and many people feel that because they are safer than analogs, then the FDA is silly for wanting to ban them, to which I say the FDA doesn't CARE if eCigs are safer than smoking... they care if eCigs are more HARMFUL than not using them AT ALL... Again... an important distinction!

So, you and I appear to be pretty smart guys in general... why am I in this discussion with you about FSUSA, and why have I NOT waged war on other suppliers? The answer is simple, to me... and you have touched on it in a few of your posts... There are MANY vendors of eLiquids... and we all have a choice as to which ones we trust...

Now, which ones do I TRUST? You may be shocked by my answer...

NONE of them...

BUT... I have purchased from only a few, and the few I have purchased from have all given me reason to distrust them LESS.

Scott, if a guy walks up to you and tells you the sun is Green... do you have any CHOICE but to correct them? I can't speak for the others in this thread... I stand alone in my opinions... but The sun is CLEARLY not green.... and OSHA CLEARLY does not involve themselves in anything beyond occupational safety...

I personally cannot trust this vendor, and I cannot trust them EVER AGAIN!

We have a saying at my office... "why lie when the truth will do"... ALL FSUSA had to say was they are opening a brick and mortar location, they had to have OSHA inspect them and they have overcome this hurdle... That would have been enough and the thread STARTED OUT that way... then you could see the reactions and assumptions from those that thought it means more... and David just rolled with it, and now he's in deep... and THEN he said he was going to do some spectro-analysis... he just kept on rolling...

And this has GOT to stop before people think his juice is SAFER than it is... again... this is a matter of perspective, and a CRITICAL distinction...

So that's how I feel about it... I've watched this lie unfold, and there is no way I feel he should let this benefit his company to the detriment of others...

If everybody uses the same raw materials in their ejuice... and all other things are equal... shouldn't you then ELIMINATE from your choices the ONE company that has behaved unethically?

It may not be safe to vape... but it is SAFER to vape products made by companies that have not behaved in a way that was publicly unethical.

 

[FreakyStylie]

Can we just close this? Seriously.

There is absolutely no usefulness in this thread. It is a "he said, she said", "see, I told you", and "oh yeah, well" bicker-fest full of speculation and innuendo.

All this thread will do is drive new people away from having any interest in vaporizing. It defeats the whole purpose of getting people away from inhaling burnt tobacco.

Each side has a point, and neither side will convince the other. Neither side is willing to hear the other, so stop preaching to each other. It is pointless; the entire issue is moot.

Please, just stop the crap and have intelligible conversations. All I see is members quoting other members and, again, saying "He said . . . .", "See, I told you . . . .", or "Oh yeah, well . . . ." It is ridiculous.

The only side I am on is the side of the person who has been smoking for X number of years and could be facing lung cancer, emphysema, COPD, etc., and wants to find an alternative to smoking. This person could decide to just keep smoking or take a drug that is known to cause severe problems in some people, just because the whole "electronic cigarette" thing is just too iffy.

Give some information. State the facts. Offer supporting materials.

Diacetyl is found in some e-liquid.
Diacetyl is found in many foods, naturally from fermentation.

Diacetyl is know to cause bronchiolitis obliterans.
Diacetyl has only been known to cause a few cases involving consumers.

Dr. Cecile Rose brought this information to the government in 2007, stating that it could affect consumers.
Problems resulting from Diacetyl have been known since 2003 due to factory workers being exposed to extreme amounts.

Inhaling vaporized diacetyl could be considered extreme exposure.
This could be true, and more testing needs to be done to find out the effects.

And this is where it all seems to fall apart. I would love to follow an informative and educational discussion of what is happening, but that is not what the threads tend to be. Look at how this one has turned into claims of marketing ploys, conspiracy talk, accusations of motives, members fighting with each other, and so-on.

I feel that more could be achieved by sticking to the subject instead of diverting attention away from the real issue. If the issue is diacetyl, then let it be that. Not about agendas, or suppliers, or members.

I would love to see the conversation going into how we consume diacetyl in sour cream, beer, popcorn, etc. About what organizations are working to raise public awareness and which ones are currently working to offer alternatives much in the same way people like ECF, CASAA, etc are trying to work to maintain alternatives for smoking.

I would love to see the mudslinging stop. We have to endure enough of it with our politicians.

How about closing this thread, and starting a new, informative thread? Maybe in the health section? This one has cancerous lesions scattered all over it and is not going to help smokers find out how to become ex-smokers.

 

[Zen~]

Can we just close this? Seriously..

I hope not... you have not read it yet...

 

[JWolf]

What is really important I think is knowing the concentrations of diacetyl and its various substitutes (all of which we do know cause respiratory irritation). From there we can do some real work, but its possible that concentrations of diacetyl in vaping are not high enough to be harmful.

 

[warbdan]

Why is none of this outrage and demands for disclosure directed toward any of the other 50+ registered suppliers like Mrs. T's, Johnson Creek, Backwoods Brew, Tasty Vapor, Pure Vapes, Gourmet Vapor, etc.

Since nobody's bashing them or demanding their disclosure, only one word comes to mind: witch-hunt.

Because they don't use FA flavorings..which is the only one still using diacetyl.
@FreakyStyle We aren't vaping beer. It is well understood that you can drink a gallon of diacetyl and all you'll get is a burp. The danger is from vaporizing it, which is the sole purpose of e-liquid. You can see the cause for concern, right?

 

[Ma'am]

Because they don't use FA flavorings..which is the only one still using diacetyl.
@FreakyStyle We aren't vaping beer. It is well understood that you can drink a gallon of diacetyl and all you'll get is a burp. The danger is from vaporizing it, which is the sole purpose of e-liquid. You can see the cause for concern, right?

What about the other ingredients that make up eliquid? Are they safe to vape? VG, PG, natural and artificial flavorings, colorings, most are safe to use as directed but are they safe when vaporized and inhaled into our lungs?
I know that VG in my lotion makes my skin nice and silky smooth, but what is that doing to my lungs long term?

Just asking.

 

[warbdan]

That's still unknown, but.... What is known is that diacetyl DESTROYS lung tissue when inhaled in vaporized form and the effects may be cumulative.

 

[Ma'am]

That's still unknown, but.... What is known is that diacetyl DESTROYS lung tissue when inhaled in vaporized form and the effects may be cumulative.

I've read about that, but is it clear how much or how long one has to inhale it? Read where it some said it is XXX amount for XXX amount of time, others where it is just speculated. Sorry, just confused here.

I will ask this though because it's been something that has concerned me too. I worked for a United Way Agency that did housing repairs and we were always getting emails from the Department of Community Affairs from our state warning us about different items that contained lead, and most were manufactured in China. With that, has anyone ever considered that with the atomisers and cartomizers that we use (made in China) could contain lead?

 

[Maggiescruzin]

I wanted to quit smoking for years and it was not that I didn't care about what was going into my lungs, it was that I was adddicted and was not able to stop! With vaping I have been able to be smoke free for months, not even thinking about picking up a ciggie. To me this is a miracle. But of course I want to know if there are things in there that are going to further harm my already damaged lungs!! What I find ironic is that one supplier is using this fear as a marketing ploy in order to stir up drama and controversy. I will buy from the suppliers that I think have the safest products and have integrity in their business ethics and stay away from the drama that others are causing by first stating they have ingredients that may be harmful but it's okay, and now decide they will test all the juice from alll suppliers...really??? We all have the choice to buy from whomever we please, so if you see it as a non-issue, no big deal...I would like my quitting smoking to mean something besides finding another way to hurt myself. I am not rushing to conclusions, but I do believe that caustion can be a smart thing to exercise at times.

 

[Ma'am]

Maybe this a topic for another thread, (about the lead) but it has been in my mind that it could be there, it's in children's toys, bracelets and so many things that are made in China. I've pondered that it could be in the accessories we use and the juice we use could be a moot point.

 

[Ma'am]

Not trying to scare anyone, please don't take it that way as our accessories may be totally lead free, I was only asking a question based on my knowledge of lead in products from China. Again, not all products that come from China have lead, but some do and that has always been in my mind.

There is alot we don't know, I am taking a risk with using any products but like a poster above, I am happier without the analogs!

 

[warbdan]

I've often wondered about the paint they use on our battery and atty possibly being lead-based. I don't think anyone has tested them for it, though.

 

[Papa Lazarou]

I'm pretty sure that has been tested (no lead found), although not on a great number of samples, and I'd have to search around to find it.

 

[Papa Lazarou]

Ah the wonders of search - here is a relevant post - http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...int-detected-testing-atomizers-batteries.html

 

[Maggiescruzin]

LOL Papa, one worry down...one I hadn't even thought about!

 

[Ma'am]

Ah the wonders of search - here is a relevant post - http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...int-detected-testing-atomizers-batteries.html

Thank you for finding that, Papa!!! Awesome that this was done, and I for one would like to see it continued, although the cost might high for that. Also, I'd like to see the cartos tested too.
Had a health issue, one I'd not had before and it was a weird one. I had started getting eye hemorrhages, was averaging one a week and very painful!

Thought it was a particular juice, but then when I changed juices, it still happened. Changed vendors, still happened and when I thought I had it down to a flavor and stopped using that particular one, it happened again. It was crazy, only in one eye and I went to an eye doctor, said my eye was fine and that wasn't the problem. Went to my regular physician and had many test run, and so far nothing is showing (although lead was never tested to my knowledge) and was still having the hemorrhages.

Now, I have finally stopped having the eye bleeds, and only thing that I've changed is I am no longer using cartomizers, only use attys now. Maybe it just stopped, maybe there was something in the carto that I was sensitive too......I don't know but still having testing done at my doctor and will update with any findings.