Horrible BBC report blames UK man's death on e-cigs!

[StormFinch]

Just popping in to say 'Hi Leaford!' and let you all know that this thing looks as if it's turning out to be quite the conspiracy. Check out Rolygate's thread here; http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/media-general-news/174633-official-complaint-bbc.html. Just be sure to take your e-cig and a beverage of your choice.

 

[malyden]

BBC Look North 28th March 2011 - UK Vapers

The reporter told me that interstitial lung disease was the official cause of death. In the normal run of things, this would be recorded as ‘natural causes’ and would be put down to the deceased’s having been a heavy smoker. He also had ongoing emphysema and thickening of the arteries. These are all conditions which we see all too frequently in heavy smokers.

Oddly, however, the gentleman’s doctor felt that ‘smoking’ an ecig may have been associated with the lung condition. He had an enlarged heart, which, together with the interstitial lung disease, would have been recorded as natural causes, but according to the coroner, ‘because the jury is still out about ecigs and their safety’ he recorded an open verdict.

 

[n00b]

Here is a couple of scripts that I guarantee will work. First the Beginner and then the Advanced.

Beginner:

you: "Hi, I am Leaford"
hottie: "Hi!"
you: "I live here but still getting to know my way around. Do you know of a good tea (bar, beer, karaoke) place near here?"
hottie: blah blah blah*
you: <nod your head>
hottie: blah blah blah
you: <look interested>
hottie: blah blah blah
you: "sounds like a great place. You really recommend it?"
hottie: "Yeah my friends and I go there all the time. You should come with us!"
you: "I may be busy but give me your number and I'll call you if I am free"

Advanced:

you: "Hi!"
hottie: blah blah blah
you: "Let's get out of here"
hottie: "ok"


Super advanced:
after you master those two. They will start coming up to you and initiating.

hottie 1: blah blah blah
hottie 2: blah blah blah
you: "Yeah I don't care about that."
hottie 2 : blah blah blah
you: <look bored>
hottie 1: blah blah blah
you: "You guys are pretty but do you do anything fun?"
hottie 2: "Sure we are going to blah blah blah. Come with us!!"


*It really doesn't matter what she says here. Just look interested (Beginner and advanced only)

**It really doesn't matter what she says here. Just look bored (Super Advanced only)

 

[leaford]

Dude, don't date yourself like that when you are pursuing a younger woman...

I mean, Yowza? Really?

That's outdated? Wow. What about groovy lady? Foxy mama? Hep chick? They're still hip right?

 

[n00b]

Broad, dame, doll, sweetcheeks, skirt are all perfectly acceptable

 

[leaford]

Just popping in to say 'Hi Leaford!' and let you all know that this thing looks as if it's turning out to be quite the conspiracy. Check out Rolygate's thread here; http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/media-general-news/174633-official-complaint-bbc.html. Just be sure to take your e-cig and a beverage of your choice.

Hi StormFinch! Yeah, I've been following that. The sad thing is, no matter what we say or do, even if someone can prove it false the denialists will still just keep bringing it up and pointing to it as "proof" e-cigs are eeeeevviiiiiillllllllll! Denialists never let go of any argument, even a disproven one.

 

[leaford]

Here is a couple of scripts that I guarantee will work. First the Beginner and then the Advanced.

Beginner:

you: "Hi, I am Leaford"
hottie: "Hi!"
you: "I live here but still getting to know my way around. Do you know of a good tea (bar, beer, karaoke) place near here?"
hottie: blah blah blah*
you: <nod your head>
hottie: blah blah blah
you: <look interested>
hottie: blah blah blah
you: "sounds like a great place. You really recommend it?"
hottie: "Yeah my friends and I go there all the time. You should come with us!"
you: "I may be busy but give me your number and I'll call you if I am free"

Advanced:

you: "Hi!"
hottie: blah blah blah
you: "Let's get out of here"
hottie: "ok"


Super advanced:
after you master those two. They will start coming up to you and initiating.

hottie 1: blah blah blah
hottie 2: blah blah blah
you: "Yeah I don't care about that."
hottie 2 : blah blah blah
you: <look bored>
hottie 1: blah blah blah
you: "You guys are pretty but do you do anything fun?"
hottie 2: "Sure we are going to blah blah blah. Come with us!!"


*It really doesn't matter what she says here. Just look interested (Beginner and advanced only)

**It really doesn't matter what she says here. Just look bored (Super Advanced only)

Yeah, blah blah blah is all I hear around here. Well, whatever blah blah blah is in chinese, anyway.

KTVs are good for dates too though. Can't talk to each other, no problem, she can sing in chinese, I can sing in English, and no conversation needed.

 

[n00b]

KTVs are good for dates too though. Can't talk to each other, no problem, she can sing in chinese, I can sing in English, and no conversation needed.

I should move there. Sounds like the perfect companion.

 

[starsong]

blah blah blah

men. sheesh.

 

[leaford]

blah blah blah

men. sheesh.

If I'd said "Ching ting wing tong" would that be better?

 

[Gardner808]

Well, it would be funnier.

 

[Stan Ferou]

I feel that I should point out that, for balance, Dr Allcock isn't alone in his beliefs regarding this issue. Apparently one of his colleagues, a certain Dr Bull, is in complete agreement with him...

 

[whitevans1]

My guess is a cigarette company bought the dr. out to say the cause of death was e-cigarettes.

 

[Gardner808]

If true, it would be a wonderful conspiracy to come to light. That would almost guarantee the safety of e-cigs.

 

[leaford]

If true, it would be a wonderful conspiracy to come to light. That would almost guarantee the safety of e-cigs.

Sadly, it wouldn't matter. The denialists would continue to ignore any debunking and hold it up as an "e-cig related death."

 

[Zeroi]

There have been saying that if someone smoke for too long and his organs already so badly damaged, he might as well die smoking. God must have think of many ways. Maybe this will be the turning point.

Sadly, it wouldn't matter. The denialists would continue to ignore any debunking and hold it up as an "e-cig related death."

 

[rolygate]

For my part even if he was vaping straight PG I'm not 100% positive (from the reading I've done) that this is safe.
................
I do it because I don't want to smoke any more... But when I recommend vaping to others (which I do) I don't claim that it is proven safer than smoking... Even though I think it is... Just that I suspect it may be. We may find out in 5 years that the long term inhalation of vaporized PG in the lungs is very bad... We will just have to wait and roll the dice.

PG for inhalation, ingestion and injection has a large, extensive, long term body of research data going back over 70 years. It is considered so inert in the human body that it is even used as the liquid carrier for injections, where the drug is immiscible (won't mix) with water, such as diazepam. In other words you can inject it into your bloodstream without implications. You can breathe a great deal of it in, for long periods, eat it, and inject it, without harm. This much is proven. However a percentage of people will have unwanted reactions, as that is the case for anything and everything.

VG does not have this body of research and therefore is theoretically not as safe. However it seems to have less minor health implications as compared with PG, so may be as safe. At present no one can say.

Mineral oils (paraffin/kerosene) and animal oils (ghee/butter) are the usual causes of lipoid pneumonia. The tiny quantities of vegetable oils we might have in flavorings are probably not sufficient in volume. For example I vaped a lot of peppermint oil based e-liquid for several months, nearly a year possibly - but only used about 25ml of oil over that time - all of which atomized by the way, none was left on the atty (but I only use 5 volts or LR). There were no health consequences for me, except that by the end of the year I could breathe more easily / better than when I started - obviously.

 

[rolygate]

One thing that bothered me was at the end of the report, she says The Electronic Cigarette Trade Association gave a detailed statement.... and nowhere in their statement did they correct the error about them containing oils - which is what the doctor is saying led to the death.

Their statement just came off as defensive, and the omission about no oils then seems like agreeing that there is oil. That was their big chance to set the record straight and they dropped the ball. They could have said that commercially made ones don't contain oil, but what people do on their own is their own responsibility (if indeed he was doing some home brew containing an oil).

The problem is that no one knows how the news is actually 'made'

Katherine at ECITA got a call from the BBC and had to give a statement, on the phone, with absolutely no background / groundwork to go with, she had no idea at the time what was going on, and gave the correct answer in the circumstances: a sensible and reasonable description of the current situation with regard to e-cigarette safety. It is more than likely that the reporter did not even mention the oil issue.

Yes, the next day, a better answer could have been produced - having seen the newsclip and the way they 'edited' it - but hindsight cures everything.

In fact it doesn't matter what ECITA did or did not say because the BBC were determined to push that doctor's agenda whether it was truthful and accurate or not.

The whole issue of the 'oil' question is: did the doctor have a full range of tests carried out in order to establish the precise nature of the illness and its precise cause with no possibility of error? At present the answer seems no - especially as it appears that the inquest record is not available, for some reason.

 

[rolygate]

........ But think of it like this, up to 20% of a juice may be flavoring, while nicotine is only in the .006% - .036% range. I suspect some chemical compounds in some flavorings may be much more concentrated than that. Take clove flavoring for example, PA's is pure eugenol (the only pure chemical flavoring constituent I have at the top of my head). Even at only 1% flavoring there will be far more eugenol than nicotine in the finished juice.
-my brain is foggy, somebody check my maths?

Sorry, yes - it's a bit foggy

24mg strength eliquid is 2.4%, 36mg liquid is 3.6%, for example.

But you are correct (IMO) in stating that the flavorings are the biggest area of concern. 20% or more can be flavorings, and we know for a fact that some of them just shouldn't be in there. Apart from the obvious villains like diacetyl, people should be made aware that breathing in substantial amounts of things like capsaicin (chilli), cinnamon and perhaps even clove cannot be considered a safe practice - some people's health will suffer as a result.

You cannot inhale substantial quantities of anything you like without consequence to health - even if it tastes nice.

 

[leaford]

Thanks for that, Royalgate! And it seems I was wrong in saying that oils do not work, period, so I retract that. But I stand by my other statements, that the claim being made here is not that the liquid contained oil based flavor, but is being claimed that it was oil based, which I maintain absolutely does not work.

You can breathe a great deal of it in, for long periods, eat it, and inject it, without harm. This much is proven.

And I want to add support to this; NASA rated allowable exposure over time for vaporized PG in a space craft atmosphere, because Russian space craft cooling systems use circulated PG, and NASA wanted to know what would be safe exposure levels if a cooling system vented vaporized PG into the atmosphere of a craft docked to a Russian craft. They found no respiratory issues with even extremely high atmospheric levels, up to levels where the atmosphere is supersaturated with PG. NONE. You can literally be immersed in a thick fog of PG for an indefinite period of time, and breathe safely.

They did, however find that PG in those levels would dry up retinal tissues, so they limited allowable exposure to 8 hours.