Well, you might be right, or wrong, who really knows. I guess we will all find out in due time
Is The Antichist Here Yet?
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Well, you might be right, or wrong, who really knows. I guess we will all find out in due time
So here is the story, straight from Lucifer's mouth, taken from the Gospel of Bartholomew:
52 But the devil said: Suffer me, and I will tell thee how I was cast down into this place and how the Lord did make man.
53 I was going to and fro in the world, and God said unto Michael: Bring me a clod from the four corners of the earth, and water out of the four rivers of paradise. And when Michael brought them God formed Adam in the regions of the east, and shaped the clod which was shapeless, and stretched sinews and veins upon it and established it with Joints; and he worshipped him, himself for his own sake first, because he was the image of God, therefore he worshipped him.
54 And when I came from the ends of the earth Michael said: Worship thou the image of God, which he hath made according to his likeness. But I said: I am fire of fire, I was the first angel formed, and shall worship clay and matter?
55 And Michael saith to me: Worship, lest God be wroth with thee. But I said to him: God will not be wroth with me; but I will set my throne over against his throne, and I will be as he is. Then was God wroth with me and cast me down, having commanded the windows of heaven to be opened.
56 And when I was cast down, he asked also the six hundred that were under me, if they would worship: but they said: Like as we have seen the first angel do, neither will we worship him that is less than ourselves. Then were the six hundred also cast down by him with me.
57 And when we were cast down upon the earth we were senseless for forty years, and when the sun shone forth seven times brighter than fire, suddenly I awaked; and I looked about and saw the six hundred that were under me senseless.
58 And I awaked my son Salpsan and took him to counsel how I might deceive the man on whose account I was cast out of the heavens.
Interesting because most Christians have no knowledge of the apocrypha. This selection established man as the reason for the war in heaven and the subsequent Fall. It provides Lucifer with very human-like motivations, jealousy and revenge. First and brightest, displaced by lowly man. Nothing here conflicts with accepted scripture.
From Revelation 19:20:
20And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
According to Saint John, there will be an unholy trinity to counter the holy trinity. We don't know that the three will occupy the same place in time, and interestingly if you plug Mohammed into the role of the false prophet, it makes perfect sense with the Revelation of Saint John.
If we examine the rise of Islam, throughout the history of the Islamic world more and more of the globe fell under muslim control. By their very creed, Islam is a religion of expansion, for there is only "one true path". Islam is NOT tolerant of other creeds. There are two ways to live in an Islamic world; convert, or accept dhimmitude, a reduced status caste with limited rights. For everyone else, the sword.
Qur'an 2:191:
And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.
The world became increasingly muslim until the siege of Vienna failed in 1683, at which time the Islamic world began to recede as the West withdrew from the Dark Ages and the Islamic world entered theirs.
Within the last century, muslim radicals have been adopting tools provided by the modern world and expansion has begun again. Make no mistake, Islam is incompatible with other faiths when the muslims have the power to drive their doctrine into non-muslim areas. Look for flash points in areas of the world with large muslim populations co-existing peacefully with non-muslim populations (India, Malaysia, to name a couple). I think we are on the verge of some bloody conflagrations in those areas as motivated, fundamentalist muslims exercise their power.
However, the way this is all written leaves a lot to the reader's interpretation, and you would be foolhardy to accept it in a literal way. Ultimately the apocalyptic times may simply represent a waking consciousness of our spiritual evolution as a species.
From the Gospel of Thomas:
Rather, the Kingdom is inside of you, and it is outside of you.
When you come to know yourselves, then you will become known, and
you will realize that it is you who are the sons of the living
Father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty
and it is you who are that poverty.
and if you reject the Gospel of Thomas because some Church told you to, here is from the Gospel of Luke 17:21:
Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
So maybe, just maybe, all of this is simply a time when we all need to wake up to the fact that God, Satan and the Kingdom of Heaven exist within us as opposed to being some obscure, remote constructs.
Maybe it's just time to wake up and come to know ourselves, the way Jesus did, the way Buddha did, and how many others whose names we don't know. Maybe that was the point all along, and instead of looking to Jesus as a deity, look to him as an inspiration because maybe God's plan is that we all evolve to that state.
Is this possible? Probably not many of us are Christ-like. Knowing yourself, doing unto others and consciously trying to evolve spiritually just as much as you can in your limited time here are a pretty good start though. Worry about your own little corner of the world, and the whole world will eventually follow. I always found it comforting that one of the Buddhist paths to enlightenment was to "live like other people". Love your family, work hard, be an active member of your community.
Those are just some thoughts I had reading through all of this. Hopefully I won't get blasted for voicing them.
52 But the devil said: Suffer me, and I will tell thee how I was cast down into this place and how the Lord did make man.
53 I was going to and fro in the world, and God said unto Michael: Bring me a clod from the four corners of the earth, and water out of the four rivers of paradise. And when Michael brought them God formed Adam in the regions of the east, and shaped the clod which was shapeless, and stretched sinews and veins upon it and established it with Joints; and he worshipped him, himself for his own sake first, because he was the image of God, therefore he worshipped him.
54 And when I came from the ends of the earth Michael said: Worship thou the image of God, which he hath made according to his likeness. But I said: I am fire of fire, I was the first angel formed, and shall worship clay and matter?
55 And Michael saith to me: Worship, lest God be wroth with thee. But I said to him: God will not be wroth with me; but I will set my throne over against his throne, and I will be as he is. Then was God wroth with me and cast me down, having commanded the windows of heaven to be opened.
56 And when I was cast down, he asked also the six hundred that were under me, if they would worship: but they said: Like as we have seen the first angel do, neither will we worship him that is less than ourselves. Then were the six hundred also cast down by him with me.
57 And when we were cast down upon the earth we were senseless for forty years, and when the sun shone forth seven times brighter than fire, suddenly I awaked; and I looked about and saw the six hundred that were under me senseless.
58 And I awaked my son Salpsan and took him to counsel how I might deceive the man on whose account I was cast out of the heavens.
Interesting because most Christians have no knowledge of the apocrypha. This selection established man as the reason for the war in heaven and the subsequent Fall. It provides Lucifer with very human-like motivations, jealousy and revenge. First and brightest, displaced by lowly man. Nothing here conflicts with accepted scripture.
From Revelation 19:20:
20And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
According to Saint John, there will be an unholy trinity to counter the holy trinity. We don't know that the three will occupy the same place in time, and interestingly if you plug Mohammed into the role of the false prophet, it makes perfect sense with the Revelation of Saint John.
If we examine the rise of Islam, throughout the history of the Islamic world more and more of the globe fell under muslim control. By their very creed, Islam is a religion of expansion, for there is only "one true path". Islam is NOT tolerant of other creeds. There are two ways to live in an Islamic world; convert, or accept dhimmitude, a reduced status caste with limited rights. For everyone else, the sword.
Qur'an 2:191:
And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.
The world became increasingly muslim until the siege of Vienna failed in 1683, at which time the Islamic world began to recede as the West withdrew from the Dark Ages and the Islamic world entered theirs.
Within the last century, muslim radicals have been adopting tools provided by the modern world and expansion has begun again. Make no mistake, Islam is incompatible with other faiths when the muslims have the power to drive their doctrine into non-muslim areas. Look for flash points in areas of the world with large muslim populations co-existing peacefully with non-muslim populations (India, Malaysia, to name a couple). I think we are on the verge of some bloody conflagrations in those areas as motivated, fundamentalist muslims exercise their power.
However, the way this is all written leaves a lot to the reader's interpretation, and you would be foolhardy to accept it in a literal way. Ultimately the apocalyptic times may simply represent a waking consciousness of our spiritual evolution as a species.
From the Gospel of Thomas:
Rather, the Kingdom is inside of you, and it is outside of you.
When you come to know yourselves, then you will become known, and
you will realize that it is you who are the sons of the living
Father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty
and it is you who are that poverty.
and if you reject the Gospel of Thomas because some Church told you to, here is from the Gospel of Luke 17:21:
Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
So maybe, just maybe, all of this is simply a time when we all need to wake up to the fact that God, Satan and the Kingdom of Heaven exist within us as opposed to being some obscure, remote constructs.
Maybe it's just time to wake up and come to know ourselves, the way Jesus did, the way Buddha did, and how many others whose names we don't know. Maybe that was the point all along, and instead of looking to Jesus as a deity, look to him as an inspiration because maybe God's plan is that we all evolve to that state.
Is this possible? Probably not many of us are Christ-like. Knowing yourself, doing unto others and consciously trying to evolve spiritually just as much as you can in your limited time here are a pretty good start though. Worry about your own little corner of the world, and the whole world will eventually follow. I always found it comforting that one of the Buddhist paths to enlightenment was to "live like other people". Love your family, work hard, be an active member of your community.
Those are just some thoughts I had reading through all of this. Hopefully I won't get blasted for voicing them.
Very interesting post! Nobody is going to "blast" you........lol. But let me offer my thoughts too.
Satan wanted to be "like God". He wanted to be worshiped, he wanted glory, he wanted to be admired. He was not humble. The original deception was, eat and you too can be like God, knowing both good and bad, and surely you won't die.
Remember? Satan knew just where to find his way in with mankind. People are alot like satan, they want to be equal with god also, they are full of pride too. They dont want to be a servant, they want to be a king too. That has been the root of the problem with mankind from the very start and still is. All of the wars, political BS, all because everybody wants to be the king. It's been man's downfall, just like it was satans downfall.
Satan has been trying to convince mankind of this lie since the very beginning, and he's still at it. Why? Because it works! The new age religion's main teachings is enlightenment to the point where you yourself are divine, you are god's yourselves, you do not need salvation, there is no death, there is no hell, there is no sin.
This is the original lie, told by satan, just packaged differently and millions of people are actually buying it and it will be their downfall as well.
Woudn't it be fun to believe that I'm actually a God? That I can be like God too? That I am divine? Sure, that sounds great! But it's a lie, and our own ego and pride will buy into this grand deception to steer us away from the only one who really is divine, the only one who is God, the only one who grants eternal life and salvation.
That was my point in referencing the scriptures that I quoted. In light of your statement here, how do we reconcile the scriptures that I quoted? Re-read them, they are only a small representation of what is in the Bible. I.E. God has torn down the dividing wall between Jew and Gentile and made the two into one.
Gal 3:29 "And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise." Read them all but how do we handle this scripture and make it true while retaining the truth of all of the rest of scripture?
I.E. How does this piece fit into the puzzle rightly?
A. Idealist (Symbolic) Method (Philosophy of History)
1. View Stated - that there are few or no references in Revelation to happenings, whether at the time of the writer or subsequently. This view is concerned with ideas and principles on which God acts throughout human history. This view
makes it relevant for all ages of church history.
2. View's objection -
a. No historical anchorage would make it suspect in that no other Bible book or letter is so composed.
b. The writer would have certainly said a lot about nothing. He could have provided a much shorter message.
c. The immediate need of those Christians of that time would seem to be lacking.
B. Preterist (meaning "the past") Method
1. View stated - with the exception of the specific happenings of the second
coming, everything has been fulfilled in the time of John and in the years
immediately following. There are two schools of thought within this method.
They are:
a. Left wing - generally made up of radical and liberal scholars who have no respect for Bible inspiration. This group believes John shared the ideas of most Jewish apocalyptists, (i.e., 1st. Enoch: Testaments of the twelve Patriarchs; Psalms of Solomon) who thought that the messianic age would be preceded by severe upheavals of the earth and visitations of God upon the unrighteous. Since (they believe) it all pointed to Rome's destruction and Rome did not fall immediately then John was wrong. They also connect fall of Rome (in John's mind) with end of world.
b. Right wing - believes the book to be inspired of God. Whereas, the left-wing group would place all of Revelation in the past, the right-wing group would make Chapter 20:1-6 "a millennial" and 20:7-21 and 22 still in the future.
2. View's objection -
a. No message for present day Christian (left wing).
b. No respect for the book being inspired (left wing).
C. Continuous Historical Method (Chronological School)
1. View stated - The Revelation is a symbolic picture of the events of the church from Pentecost until the end of time.
2. View's objection -
a. No message for the Christian to whom it was written. Yet it was to show them "what must shortly come to pass."
b. This method attaches an undue importance to the apostasy of the Roman Catholic Church.
c. This method leads to false calculations of time. It is based on the assumption that the time periods of Revelation are to be taken as the "one day = one year" theory (Num 14:34; Ezek 4:4-6; Dan 9:25). For this there is no proof. Psa 90:4; 2 Pet3:8
d. This method is not based upon anything in Revelation itself. This allows the interpretation of details to be different according to the interpreter and the time in which he is living. Conversely, the book implies the connection of the church in John's day with the events themselves, not just the first one.
D. Futurist Method
1. View stated - looks upon the Revelation as a volume of unfulfilled prophecy. From chapter four to the end of the writing (3 1⁄2 years before Christ's second coming 14-19) those events are to take place within the brief space of seven years (connected with 70th week of Dan 9:24-27, which is cut off in the middle and thereby separated by many centuries from the previous weeks). An extreme literalism usually characterizes the futurist method (earthquakes, stars falling, temple measured, etc.) A literal millennium during a future earthly reign of Christ between His second coming and the resurrection is held by most futurists.
2. View's objection -
a. It is inconsistent with John's statement of 1:1 where he notes "the things which must shortly take place."
1) "Must" (dei) - as the decree of the absolute and infallible God - it is necessary; therefore a moral necessity is involved. cf. John 3:30.
2) "Shortly" (en taxei) - it is an urgent issue which implies immediate fulfillment and not a "millennium" or two. Futurists state that this means "certainly" but that would not hold true with the word usage in 2 Tim. 4:9 - "bring the cloak" in a few thousand years?? 2 Tim. 4:21.
b. The visions of the Revelation were to be fulfilled in the immediate future.
c. The immediate need of those Christians of that time would seem to be lacking indeed for all subsequent generations right up to the last. What encouragement does this view offer to the suffering church with a first-century setting?
1. View Stated - that there are few or no references in Revelation to happenings, whether at the time of the writer or subsequently. This view is concerned with ideas and principles on which God acts throughout human history. This view
makes it relevant for all ages of church history.
2. View's objection -
a. No historical anchorage would make it suspect in that no other Bible book or letter is so composed.
b. The writer would have certainly said a lot about nothing. He could have provided a much shorter message.
c. The immediate need of those Christians of that time would seem to be lacking.
B. Preterist (meaning "the past") Method
1. View stated - with the exception of the specific happenings of the second
coming, everything has been fulfilled in the time of John and in the years
immediately following. There are two schools of thought within this method.
They are:
a. Left wing - generally made up of radical and liberal scholars who have no respect for Bible inspiration. This group believes John shared the ideas of most Jewish apocalyptists, (i.e., 1st. Enoch: Testaments of the twelve Patriarchs; Psalms of Solomon) who thought that the messianic age would be preceded by severe upheavals of the earth and visitations of God upon the unrighteous. Since (they believe) it all pointed to Rome's destruction and Rome did not fall immediately then John was wrong. They also connect fall of Rome (in John's mind) with end of world.
b. Right wing - believes the book to be inspired of God. Whereas, the left-wing group would place all of Revelation in the past, the right-wing group would make Chapter 20:1-6 "a millennial" and 20:7-21 and 22 still in the future.
2. View's objection -
a. No message for present day Christian (left wing).
b. No respect for the book being inspired (left wing).
C. Continuous Historical Method (Chronological School)
1. View stated - The Revelation is a symbolic picture of the events of the church from Pentecost until the end of time.
2. View's objection -
a. No message for the Christian to whom it was written. Yet it was to show them "what must shortly come to pass."
b. This method attaches an undue importance to the apostasy of the Roman Catholic Church.
c. This method leads to false calculations of time. It is based on the assumption that the time periods of Revelation are to be taken as the "one day = one year" theory (Num 14:34; Ezek 4:4-6; Dan 9:25). For this there is no proof. Psa 90:4; 2 Pet3:8
d. This method is not based upon anything in Revelation itself. This allows the interpretation of details to be different according to the interpreter and the time in which he is living. Conversely, the book implies the connection of the church in John's day with the events themselves, not just the first one.
D. Futurist Method
1. View stated - looks upon the Revelation as a volume of unfulfilled prophecy. From chapter four to the end of the writing (3 1⁄2 years before Christ's second coming 14-19) those events are to take place within the brief space of seven years (connected with 70th week of Dan 9:24-27, which is cut off in the middle and thereby separated by many centuries from the previous weeks). An extreme literalism usually characterizes the futurist method (earthquakes, stars falling, temple measured, etc.) A literal millennium during a future earthly reign of Christ between His second coming and the resurrection is held by most futurists.
2. View's objection -
a. It is inconsistent with John's statement of 1:1 where he notes "the things which must shortly take place."
1) "Must" (dei) - as the decree of the absolute and infallible God - it is necessary; therefore a moral necessity is involved. cf. John 3:30.
2) "Shortly" (en taxei) - it is an urgent issue which implies immediate fulfillment and not a "millennium" or two. Futurists state that this means "certainly" but that would not hold true with the word usage in 2 Tim. 4:9 - "bring the cloak" in a few thousand years?? 2 Tim. 4:21.
b. The visions of the Revelation were to be fulfilled in the immediate future.
c. The immediate need of those Christians of that time would seem to be lacking indeed for all subsequent generations right up to the last. What encouragement does this view offer to the suffering church with a first-century setting?
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mlankton,
You do have to understand that the Gospel of Bartholomew and the Qur'an, are not considered "God inspired" (therefore where not) included in the cannon. I don't know Bartholomew in its entirety but a good case in point against it is where it displays God worshiping His own creation, in the case of the Qur'an which came after the cannon of scripture, I have read it, and it strays far and wide from the teaching of the Bible to the extent that they cannot both be truth, so one must be chosen over the other or both disregarded and yet another source of truth sought. The three documents (Bible, Qur'an, Bartholomew) do not agree with or support each other. They all by the premise that each is truth deny the others to be reliable.
I say this respectfully to point out that you have to understand: To a Christian who believes sincerely that the Bible is the reliable word of God. Therefore any other writing whose claims outright refute the validity of the Bible, cannot be used to build a reasonable argument upon as the very premise and foundation is flawed.
The whole representation you gave while obviously well thought out and researched and most likely not concluded without consideration, is a long way to come to say, "Did God really say that? Isn't it possible that this other way is right?" To the Christian, the Apocrypha is not knowledge, (ADDED, those portions that outright refute scripture) it is fantasy at best and heresy at the least. Some Christians have an understanding of the Apocrypha, we just don't consider it to belong among God inspired documents as they largely refute those that are. (ADDED here is the exception to what I may have unclearly originaly wrote...) Some of the writings are good representation of history but not necessarily God inspired writings, therefore "left out".
I don't ask you to agree with this stance so much as I do humbly ask you to understand that this is where and why I and most all other Christians believe. Those writings confuse and go against, not clarify and unite with the Holy Bible.
Not against your belief, but to a Christian, God worshiping creation (no matter how eloquent the explanation for it is) is against who the Bible reveals God to be. To the Christian, to represent Satan as the wronged noble and righteous one (and ultimately that God was the one who did wrong by worshiping rather than Satan for refusing to worship) is "another Gospel" intended to draw some away from the truth of God.
I myself am not done searching and I would humbly offer that you are not either? Please do not be satisfied with the documents that you consider if they go against the others that you consider. With that method we are left to decide what the truth is on our own intellect and I for one would have a difficult time figuring it all out for myself and still be confident that it is truth. We from inside creation cannot know God who is outside of creation unless He reveals Himself to us.
Now if there are many different "revealings" and they all give dynamically different accounts, I submit to you that it is a poor scholarly practice to embrace them all as valid.
You do have to understand that the Gospel of Bartholomew and the Qur'an, are not considered "God inspired" (therefore where not) included in the cannon. I don't know Bartholomew in its entirety but a good case in point against it is where it displays God worshiping His own creation, in the case of the Qur'an which came after the cannon of scripture, I have read it, and it strays far and wide from the teaching of the Bible to the extent that they cannot both be truth, so one must be chosen over the other or both disregarded and yet another source of truth sought. The three documents (Bible, Qur'an, Bartholomew) do not agree with or support each other. They all by the premise that each is truth deny the others to be reliable.
I say this respectfully to point out that you have to understand: To a Christian who believes sincerely that the Bible is the reliable word of God. Therefore any other writing whose claims outright refute the validity of the Bible, cannot be used to build a reasonable argument upon as the very premise and foundation is flawed.
The whole representation you gave while obviously well thought out and researched and most likely not concluded without consideration, is a long way to come to say, "Did God really say that? Isn't it possible that this other way is right?" To the Christian, the Apocrypha is not knowledge, (ADDED, those portions that outright refute scripture) it is fantasy at best and heresy at the least. Some Christians have an understanding of the Apocrypha, we just don't consider it to belong among God inspired documents as they largely refute those that are. (ADDED here is the exception to what I may have unclearly originaly wrote...) Some of the writings are good representation of history but not necessarily God inspired writings, therefore "left out".
I don't ask you to agree with this stance so much as I do humbly ask you to understand that this is where and why I and most all other Christians believe. Those writings confuse and go against, not clarify and unite with the Holy Bible.
Not against your belief, but to a Christian, God worshiping creation (no matter how eloquent the explanation for it is) is against who the Bible reveals God to be. To the Christian, to represent Satan as the wronged noble and righteous one (and ultimately that God was the one who did wrong by worshiping rather than Satan for refusing to worship) is "another Gospel" intended to draw some away from the truth of God.
I myself am not done searching and I would humbly offer that you are not either? Please do not be satisfied with the documents that you consider if they go against the others that you consider. With that method we are left to decide what the truth is on our own intellect and I for one would have a difficult time figuring it all out for myself and still be confident that it is truth. We from inside creation cannot know God who is outside of creation unless He reveals Himself to us.
Now if there are many different "revealings" and they all give dynamically different accounts, I submit to you that it is a poor scholarly practice to embrace them all as valid.
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b. Right wing - believes the book to be inspired of God. Whereas, the left-wing group would place all of Revelation in the past, the right-wing group would make Chapter 20:1-6 "a millennial" and 20:7-21 and 22 still in the future.
Of course this includes much of the "historical background" interpretation as well being accepted.
Of course this includes much of the "historical background" interpretation as well being accepted.
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Before Christ, there were only 2 "kinds" of people in the world--Jews and gentiles--both living under the law. With the death and resurrection of Christ, there came a 3rd "group". These people make up the Church. Although previously either Jewish or gentile, they are now living under grace and are neither Jewish or gentile. They are a separate entity known as the bride of Christ. When the full number of people belonging to the bride come in, the church will be raptured, and the earth will go back to being divided between Jews and gentiles, according to the promise of God. (At that point most, if not all, of the Jews will be living in Israel.
First, Irenaeus' Adversus haereses is a flat out attack on Gnosticism. He was far more concerned with attacking Christian thought which did not coincide with his own, and his work was influential.
Second, the purpose of the 1st Council of Nicea was every bit as much about strengthening the failing Roman Empire as it was about standardizing Christian doctrine.
Who is to say that the Gospel of Judas shouldn't appear in the New Testament? Irenaeus? We know that he had motivations that were driven as much by his ambition as they were by his piety.
Therefore I simply put it to you, do you find that within the apocrypha there exists no message that is of value to the Christian? I'll answer that question for myself; the quotation from the Gospel of Thomas I used previously is the most powerful piece of scripture I ever read. I understand why the Church wouldn't have liked it, because it stresses the relationship between the individual and God is intrinsic, and therefore the position of the Church, which wants to exercise power over the individual, is diminished.
Hey I don't mean any disrespect btw, I respect everyone's right to seek as they choose.
Before Columbus, the majority of people believed that the world was flat--that didn't mean that they were right. Just that a lot of them believed it. (the exception to people believing this were those who were familiar with Jewish scripture which describes the world as an orb or circle suspended on nothing). And I guess I see your question, I think. When it says that we are "caught up...in the clouds" it doesn't mean that Christ is coming directly to set His foot upon earth at that time. That won't happen until at least 7 years later. However, at the second coming, He will actually set His feet down upon the Mount of Olives.
The purpose of the millennium? Man has sought to blame someone else for his/her sins. Many people blame Satan. But, for the thousand years of the millennium, Satan will be "bound" and unable to directly influence people. The millennium will show that man sins (goes against God) because he wants to, not because someone else tempted them. Those who survived to go into the millennium will have experienced the true power and glory of God and will not likely be tempted. But their descendants will as the 1000 years progress--because man is inherently sinful. After 1000, Satan will be released from bondage, and will be able to amass a huge "army" to try to overthrow Christ as the leader. They will fail of course, and then comes Judgment Day. After that, eternity.
My understanding is of a-millennialists believe that scripture is inspired--just that some of it is symbolic or irrelevant.
With all due respect..that would be a flawed understanding. Symbolic yes. Irrelevant no.
So, how is Revelation 20 seen? As symbolic? Or as having happened already?
We believe it is current. Christ is reigning now as head of the church and seated at the right (authority) hand of God.
Revelation 20:7-15
7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
So, this is current?
20:1-6 is current. This is were we stand and the rest is yet to be.
b. Right wing - believes the book to be inspired of God. Whereas, the left-wing group would place all of Revelation in the past, the right-wing group would make Chapter 20:1-6 "a millennial" and 20:7-21 and 22 still in the future.
Of course this includes much of the "historical background" interpretation as well being accepted.
from my original post
b. Right wing - believes the book to be inspired of God. Whereas, the left-wing group would place all of Revelation in the past, the right-wing group would make Chapter 20:1-6 "a millennial" and 20:7-21 and 22 still in the future.
Of course this includes much of the "historical background" interpretation as well being accepted.
from my original post
I've been overlooking this thread. You all still haven't convinced me about the children in the rapture bit. I wasn't saying they would go to hell, only that they would grow up during the trib and have their opportunity for salvation then if they reach accountability. Just wanted to clarify in case some of you misunderstood.
As for the antichrist, two words. George Soros! He's gotta be involved somehow!
As for the antichrist, two words. George Soros! He's gotta be involved somehow!
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