Knock off rant
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Well first thing to remember is you are dealing the knockoff king China.
Where at a factory right next to the line cranking out the next latest and greatest, is another making knockoffs at a lower price point.
All the wile their RD department is working on the next latest and greatest must have and how to get to a lower price point.
So I don't have a problem with knockoffs
Where at a factory right next to the line cranking out the next latest and greatest, is another making knockoffs at a lower price point.
All the wile their RD department is working on the next latest and greatest must have and how to get to a lower price point.
So I don't have a problem with knockoffs
I'm disabled, unable to work, unable to get disability, it's a nice catch 22, my income is VERY tight and if I want something I have to do things that piss off my wife, my Dr's and my body.
I picked up a Lava tube clone to try VV, I liked it and knew it would be something that would help me on my road to quit. I did some odd jobs and was laid up for a week afterwards, but I'd made enough money to purchase a Provari.
I wanted to try my hand at RBA's but I've no idea if I want to work that hard at it, if I could even get it to work and which one I would like. I've spent around $50 and now have three I am playing with, but haven't had much luck as of yet. I like the looks of the ZAP, but that's going to be me laid up for another week to earn the money for it. If I get to the point I like them well enough I may buy one. But right now it's just not worth it to me to spend the $100 plus for the originals that I don't even know I'll like or use.
I understand your point, I really do, if I came out with something and the Chinese copied it and sold it for 1/8th of what I sold it for, I'd be ......! But the economy isn't what it was, even ten years ago, and getting worse. My wife makes what I thought was good money, but the house payment, ONE car payment, utilities, groceries and taking care of our 8yo's needs, there isn't much left, if even enough at all some weeks. Many of us are having to make hard choices that we wouldn't have dreamt of even a couple years ago. So as I can respect your opinion, I hope you can understand why some of us have to make the choices we make.
I picked up a Lava tube clone to try VV, I liked it and knew it would be something that would help me on my road to quit. I did some odd jobs and was laid up for a week afterwards, but I'd made enough money to purchase a Provari.
I wanted to try my hand at RBA's but I've no idea if I want to work that hard at it, if I could even get it to work and which one I would like. I've spent around $50 and now have three I am playing with, but haven't had much luck as of yet. I like the looks of the ZAP, but that's going to be me laid up for another week to earn the money for it. If I get to the point I like them well enough I may buy one. But right now it's just not worth it to me to spend the $100 plus for the originals that I don't even know I'll like or use.
I understand your point, I really do, if I came out with something and the Chinese copied it and sold it for 1/8th of what I sold it for, I'd be ......! But the economy isn't what it was, even ten years ago, and getting worse. My wife makes what I thought was good money, but the house payment, ONE car payment, utilities, groceries and taking care of our 8yo's needs, there isn't much left, if even enough at all some weeks. Many of us are having to make hard choices that we wouldn't have dreamt of even a couple years ago. So as I can respect your opinion, I hope you can understand why some of us have to make the choices we make.
If I don't have to I won't buy it.
Having said that though, I do own an Ody and if a part broke on it that I couldn't replace from the manufacturer I would consider the terminator as an option to replace the broken part.
I think the knock-offs are definitely shady. Sure, take some influence but don't directly copy.
That being said, some of these higher end items have such a low production rate and high cost its insane! Its not feasible for me to sit on my a.. all day waiting for a ZAP to come in stock. Oh you weren't at the computer for 20 minutes? Too bad it sold out. Just wait another few weeks to get the chance at possibly ordering one.
That being said, some of these higher end items have such a low production rate and high cost its insane! Its not feasible for me to sit on my a.. all day waiting for a ZAP to come in stock. Oh you weren't at the computer for 20 minutes? Too bad it sold out. Just wait another few weeks to get the chance at possibly ordering one.
We don't. Its not OK.
Patents and trademarks are legal issues and can be defended should they:
1. exist
and
2. the holder decides to do so.
Everything you own is a knock-off. Even language you wrote your post is a knock-off. Your PC is a knock-off. Your monitor is knock-off, your shampoo, your toothpaste... everything...
Genesis RBA was invented by german guy... do idea if he works with somebody and sells ideas, but he posted pretty much detailed post on how it works. So I'll take that he doesn't mind everyone using it.
The hardware in VW devices is same, so... connect the dots.
The inventor of ecig is Ruyan, therefore every other device you see is direct or indirect knock-off of that device. Actually it can be also called knock-off if we are to believe wikipedia and credit that guy back in 1963.
Provari is good quality build ecig device that is a knock-off of ecig device... it is a knock-off of electronic cigarette but somehow it is ultimately popular...
You will pay me X amount of money instead of illegal alien because the fact that you'll get fined hardcore by government if you hire him.
Your rant is about knock-offs of knock-offs.
Genesis RBA was invented by german guy... do idea if he works with somebody and sells ideas, but he posted pretty much detailed post on how it works. So I'll take that he doesn't mind everyone using it.
The hardware in VW devices is same, so... connect the dots.
The inventor of ecig is Ruyan, therefore every other device you see is direct or indirect knock-off of that device. Actually it can be also called knock-off if we are to believe wikipedia and credit that guy back in 1963.
Provari is good quality build ecig device that is a knock-off of ecig device... it is a knock-off of electronic cigarette but somehow it is ultimately popular...
You will pay me X amount of money instead of illegal alien because the fact that you'll get fined hardcore by government if you hire him.
Your rant is about knock-offs of knock-offs.
I don't mind clone or knock off products as long as they are presented as such.I'd be upset if I bought an "eGo" and it was not genuine Joye Tech. But I'd purchase a Phoenix clone because they are usually presented as a clone or with a name other than Phoenix and they work fine and I save money.So it depends on how the thing is marketed to me, no false claim, no moral dilemma.
Granted, if you mean 'We' as the ECF Administration and ECF Rules then yes indeed You are against the use of copyrighted material and trademarks without specific authorisation from the Owner.
However, if we use the term 'We' a little more loosely and think more in regard to the mindset of some ECF members then No it seems some believe that if a device is developed with origins outside of China then it must remain sacrosanct yet if the brand belongs to Big Tobacco then it's ok to pirate it, one only has to look online to see how many vendors sell Red's, Desert Animals and Turkish Blends using the Original Brand names.
I do not subscribe to this concept, however there seem to be many posts on the ECF that have and do support it although I will add in most instances ECF Moderators do their utmost to delete such threads.
However, if we use the term 'We' a little more loosely and think more in regard to the mindset of some ECF members then No it seems some believe that if a device is developed with origins outside of China then it must remain sacrosanct yet if the brand belongs to Big Tobacco then it's ok to pirate it, one only has to look online to see how many vendors sell Red's, Desert Animals and Turkish Blends using the Original Brand names.
I do not subscribe to this concept, however there seem to be many posts on the ECF that have and do support it although I will add in most instances ECF Moderators do their utmost to delete such threads.
I had to look that on up, that doesn't happen often!
Sacrosanct - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
Sacrosanct - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
On one hand I can see where the OP is coming from and empathize.
On the other hand I love my Vtubes and can't bring myself to trash talk them.
On the other hand I love my Vtubes and can't bring myself to trash talk them.
i personally believe that knockoff's are what keep name brand manufacturers competitive! Name brand manufacturers would have no reason to try to be competitive with pricing and production unless you could go get something similar, thats easier to obtain and for less money. just like stated earlier, people who can afford the name brand stuff are gonna buy the name brand stuff because its better quality and people who cant afford it wont. I just dont see who its hurting, by giving the folks who cant afford to buy name brand products anyway, something they can afford and be proud of. Just my opinion....I really dont think it has much to do with honor or values.
Same question Pfizer, Ford and De Beers would like an answer to.
They want my loyalty while gouging me in the same fell stroke.
Monopolistic pricing has consequences ... leaving plenty of room for the competition to offer value for your money.
My printer software informs me I'm not using genuine Epson ink when their cartridges are $42 ... 7 times the price of a jobber for $6, and the quality just as good.
And then there is also the other side of the coin ... the copycat who sells a grossly inferior product while pretending to be an equal. Word of mouth since the internet spreads rather fast and these cats fold their tents rather quickly. Buyer beware.
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Why rant about knockoffs when some of the equipments you're using (impressive list!) are clone/knockoff of other people's product/design (i.e. gg)? Where do you draw the line?
If you are referring to all the clones that are being pump out of China (i.e. CHid, CHobra, Oddy), well, the practice is definitely shady to say the least...but I'm glad there are clones out there, it only took ~$13 investment in getting a CHid to realize SS wasn't for me and saved me from dropping $100+ on a piece of hardware just to end up with the headaches of have to list/sell it in the classifieds.
Let's face it, if it weren't for the knockoff and clones, would there still be as many listings today for these higher end products without all the huge markups as seen a few months back?
If you are referring to all the clones that are being pump out of China (i.e. CHid, CHobra, Oddy), well, the practice is definitely shady to say the least...but I'm glad there are clones out there, it only took ~$13 investment in getting a CHid to realize SS wasn't for me and saved me from dropping $100+ on a piece of hardware just to end up with the headaches of have to list/sell it in the classifieds.
Let's face it, if it weren't for the knockoff and clones, would there still be as many listings today for these higher end products without all the huge markups as seen a few months back?
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Just so I'm clear, what you're saying here is that you have issue with those who purchase knock-offs because it's supporting thieves, correct?
I'm only asking because @Plumes.91 does make a valid point. Not everyone in the vaping community has the funds right up front to experience an "upper-class" vaping experience that (supposedly) a Zen or devices similar to it deliver. So for these people who live paycheck-to-paycheck trying to support their families, keep a roof over their heads, and keep food in their fridge should just purchase "original" products? You know, so the people who designed a specific item (either within the vaping industry or outside of it [i.e his example with the boxer briefs]) can get their due profits from what they created, right? If that were truly the case, I believe the cost of living would rise substantially across the board in all industries we purchase goods and services from.
My point being that vapers who want the originals WILL BUY the originals. If a device and/or accessory is THAT GOOD, there will always be a market for the original version for those who want it. Yeah, there will be companies located in foreign lands that may try to capitalize on that by offering a similar design for a cheaper cost. At least that gives people who can't afford the "real McCoy" a "gimpse" of what they should save up for so they can get an original. That's the way I see it at least. The original designers should get mad if the selling of these clones gets in the way of their own sales. However, you know as well as any hardcore vapor: If they want a specific original device or accessory, THEY WILL find a way to get it. As the vaping community grows (and it will definitely grow!), we'll only see more of this. Yeah unfortunate, but at least it saves stock for more hardcore vapers who have the funds to buy them out. I mean you know the trends: If a device or accessory is "that" good, it always sells out anyway!
I'm only asking because @Plumes.91 does make a valid point. Not everyone in the vaping community has the funds right up front to experience an "upper-class" vaping experience that (supposedly) a Zen or devices similar to it deliver. So for these people who live paycheck-to-paycheck trying to support their families, keep a roof over their heads, and keep food in their fridge should just purchase "original" products? You know, so the people who designed a specific item (either within the vaping industry or outside of it [i.e his example with the boxer briefs]) can get their due profits from what they created, right? If that were truly the case, I believe the cost of living would rise substantially across the board in all industries we purchase goods and services from.
My point being that vapers who want the originals WILL BUY the originals. If a device and/or accessory is THAT GOOD, there will always be a market for the original version for those who want it. Yeah, there will be companies located in foreign lands that may try to capitalize on that by offering a similar design for a cheaper cost. At least that gives people who can't afford the "real McCoy" a "gimpse" of what they should save up for so they can get an original. That's the way I see it at least. The original designers should get mad if the selling of these clones gets in the way of their own sales. However, you know as well as any hardcore vapor: If they want a specific original device or accessory, THEY WILL find a way to get it. As the vaping community grows (and it will definitely grow!), we'll only see more of this. Yeah unfortunate, but at least it saves stock for more hardcore vapers who have the funds to buy them out. I mean you know the trends: If a device or accessory is "that" good, it always sells out anyway!
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Totally agree,
Just ordered an Aga T, to try and if I like will then go on to purchase a DID collection that I have my eye fixed firmly on and luckily can afford, but not about to blow all that dough on something I may not like.
So no one wants a polvari clone/copy for 30 bucks, call it qolvai? lol jk. Wait, I think few exist already.
On the serious note. Why is all this morality issue coming up with coping. You guys make it sound like we live in a fair world by any means..
1.Original markets those who can afford.
2.Copies markets for those who cannot not afford original or too cheap to buy original, making copies available for much less.
either your fit into 1 or 2. Where does your wallet point to?
On the serious note. Why is all this morality issue coming up with coping. You guys make it sound like we live in a fair world by any means..
1.Original markets those who can afford.
2.Copies markets for those who cannot not afford original or too cheap to buy original, making copies available for much less.
either your fit into 1 or 2. Where does your wallet point to?
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Great discussion lots of great points as with anything lots of grey areas here. I always like the finger pointers and self justifiers. To me copying can improve on somethings Im not sure who originally invented the geny but all are really copy's after but the copier made improvements. What I had in mind was the GG clone and the Zen clone that one even went as far as photo shopping the zen name off and using the same pictures for their add.
But I really wasent pointing to any specific item . My goal with the thread was to get people to think.
But I really wasent pointing to any specific item . My goal with the thread was to get people to think.
People need to realize that while it's wonderful to produce high quality items, to overcharge for a brand name is bull..... If someone can make the same thing, the same way, but MORE INEXPENSIVELY, they are helping the market, not hindering it! Why do you think electronics have had such a boom in the last 20 years? Computers used to be something that cost $100k. Then someone figured out how to make them cheaper. Then they got better. Then THAT technology was cheap too! THEN they got EVEN BETTER, because MORE PEOPLE HAD ACCESS TO THEM
IT'S CALLED ADVANCEMENT
By other companies offering the SAME PRODUCT, but CHEAPER, it forces the forerunners in the market (Provari etc) to make their products BETTER. If there were no competition in the market, there would be no product advancement. Period.
If the cheaper products don't work very well, those people that bought one may buy one of the "name brand" pieces.
If the cheaper product DOES work well, the "name brands" will be forced to step up their game with something bigger and better, making more, newer, more advanced products for YOU the end user.
IT'S CALLED ADVANCEMENT
By other companies offering the SAME PRODUCT, but CHEAPER, it forces the forerunners in the market (Provari etc) to make their products BETTER. If there were no competition in the market, there would be no product advancement. Period.
If the cheaper products don't work very well, those people that bought one may buy one of the "name brand" pieces.
If the cheaper product DOES work well, the "name brands" will be forced to step up their game with something bigger and better, making more, newer, more advanced products for YOU the end user.
Mikejm I could not agree with you more! If it's a knock off then advertise it as such but DO NOT lead me to believe it's a genuine product when it's not!
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