My NET Experiments -- Microwave Heat Extraction

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Chinook

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Here are my third extract notes with VG this time:

tobacco American Spirits Organics Cigarette
Quantity 2 cigarettes
Base VG
Base Volume 22 mL
Method 70% Power microwave in shot glass
6 x 4s mix in between
Mix 60s
4 x 4s mix in between
Mix until OK to touch
Filtering 2x through boiled cotton
Notes Smells more tobaccoey and less oily, dark blond color
Overall less intense smell than PG extract
Filtering a pain, 1 drop per second
10 mL extract overall
The shot glass was internally very hot, mixing it made hotter

This time the color of the extract is much lighter than the PG extract. But the extract smells more interesting than
the PG extract overall, more crushed tobacco notes in it. But the aroma is dimmer, I'd say 1/3 of the PG extract.

I tried very hard not to overcook it. I mixed the concoction after 4 seconds of nuking each time. The VG captures the heat and releases the heat very very slowly. As I mix it, I noticed that the shot glass got hotter and hotter. Obviously, much different heat conduction and capacity property than H2O... I cooked until I smell the tobacco.. I could have cooked it more but just wanted to stop at this stage and see how the extract steeps.

Filtering was a big pain. I sweated filtering 10-15 mL of extract :) I put so much pressure on the syringe plunger and only 1 drop / second came out!..

This whole process took about 1 hour! Very artisanal and hand-crafted, LOL :) It better vape and taste great !

Next time, I'll try 50/50 PG/VG base.
 

Trayce

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Here are my third extract notes with VG this time:

Tobacco American Spirits Organics Cigarette
Quantity 2 cigarettes
Base VG
Base Volume 22 mL
Method 70% Power microwave in shot glass
6 x 4s mix in between
Mix 60s
4 x 4s mix in between
Mix until OK to touch
Filtering 2x through boiled cotton
Notes Smells more tobaccoey and less oily, dark blond color
Overall less intense smell than PG extract
Filtering a pain, 1 drop per second
10 mL extract overall
The shot glass was internally very hot, mixing it made hotter

This time the color of the extract is much lighter than the PG extract. But the extract smells more interesting than
the PG extract overall, more crushed tobacco notes in it. But the aroma is dimmer, I'd say 1/3 of the PG extract.

I tried very hard not to overcook it. I mixed the concoction after 4 seconds of nuking each time. The VG captures the heat and releases the heat very very slowly. As I mix it, I noticed that the shot glass got hotter and hotter. Obviously, much different heat conduction and capacity property than H2O... I cooked until I smell the tobacco.. I could have cooked it more but just wanted to stop at this stage and see how the extract steeps.

Filtering was a big pain. I sweated filtering 10-15 mL of extract :) I put so much pressure on the syringe plunger and only 1 drop / second came out!..

This whole process took about 1 hour! Very artisanal and hand-crafted, LOL :) It better vape and taste great !

Next time, I'll try 50/50 PG/VG base.

Great writeup!! (IKWYM about the syringe... I thought I was going to break the plunger.)

Interesting that you are noticing more notes with the VG even though overall it's not as strong smelling as the PG NET. I could say the same. The PG was stronger in my experience but the notes and overall smell was less fragrant. At least until it steeped a few days. But even still the VG ended up more closely representing the tobacco smell I wanted.

So which of your NETs are you happier with at this point?
 

Chinook

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Great writeup!! (IKWYM about the syringe... I thought I was going to break the plunger.)

Exactly about the plunger! I think the extract needs to be warmed up before filtering. My hands were sore :)

Interesting that you are noticing more notes with the VG even though overall it's not as strong smelling as the PG NET. I could say the same. The PG was stronger in my experience but the notes and overall smell was less fragrant. At least until it steeped a few days. But even still the VG ended up more closely representing the tobacco smell I wanted.

So which of your NETs are you happier with at this point?

I haven't yet made up a juice with the VG extract. But the extract has a muted aroma so far. Early next week, I'll make a juice and vape it. The PG juice keeps gaining intensity, still not as what I'd like as a flavor profile. But it keeps changing.
 

billherbst

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What is e.m. ?

Ethyl Maltol, the most common sweetener used in eliquids.

Personally, I use liquid stevia rather than ethyl maltol for sweetening juices, specifically KAL Pure Stevia Natural Extract. I mention the particular retail product because different brands of stevia are all over the map in flavor, potency, and aftertaste (or absence of). Some formulations of stevia are absurdly potent, others weaker, and many are accompanied unpleasantly by an acrid, bitter aftertaste. KAL Pure Stevia has moderate potency, so you won't ruin your bottle of juice if you use one drop too much, and no aftertaste. Just pure sweetness that approximates the taste of cane sugar from an all-natural source. I'm not sure that stevia is "healthier" than ethyl maltol, but I like it better.
 

Trayce

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I haven't yet made up a juice with the VG extract. But the extract has a muted aroma so far. Early next week, I'll make a juice and vape it. The PG juice keeps gaining intensity, still not as what I'd like as a flavor profile. But it keeps changing.

That's good... it can change A LOT ... as long as it's still changing you might yet come out with what you expected. It should come out very close to what the tobacco smells like. At least from everything I've read.
 

Chinook

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Ethyl Maltol, the most common sweetener used in eliquids.

Personally, I use liquid stevia rather than ethyl maltol for sweetening juices, specifically KAL Pure Stevia Natural Extract. I mention the particular retail product because different brands of stevia are all over the map in flavor, potency, and aftertaste (or absence of). Some formulations of stevia are absurdly potent, others weaker, and many are accompanied unpleasantly by an acrid, bitter aftertaste. KAL Pure Stevia has moderate potency, so you won't ruin your bottle of juice if you use one drop too much, and no aftertaste. Just pure sweetness that approximates the taste of cane sugar from an all-natural source. I'm not sure that stevia is "healthier" than ethyl maltol, but I like it better.

Bill, thank you very much for that great tip!
 

Chinook

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I also tried the hot VG extraction:

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...4-vg-pipe-tobacco-essense-7.html#post11443027

Here is a repost:

I tried this method with tobacco from two organic cigarettes and 35-40 mL of VG. I used a 5.5" diameter stainless steel sauce pan with lid. I also moistened the tobacco with about half teaspoon of water. There was a lot of evaporation going on so I didn't wait until I saw the bubbles coming out of VG. When I added tobacco into hot VG, the tobacco sizzled, it smelled good for like 3 seconds and then the mixture had a slight burnt smell to it. I put the sauce pan back on heat. The tobacco just got darker even before I saw any bubbles coming out. The smell was almost like burnt tobacco. I think VG got too hot. Overall, I think the tobacco got scorched -- it didn't smell and look good anymore. Anyway, I had to dump it.

Did this happen to anyone else? I think the VG gets too hot for tobacco and scorches it. After trying this, I'm surprised this doesn't happen more often to others. I don't know what I did "wrong" -- the VG didn't even boil... Somehow did I manage to super heat the VG? I don't know how that would happen though...

Thanks.

According to a follow up post, that extract could have been viable....I might try it again but it is messy with all of the VG vapor around the scorched tobacco smell.
 

billherbst

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In my extractions, I never expose the macerations to direct heat, only indirect, and I use only low heat, never high or intense.

I put a trivet in a large pot (the size one would use to make pasta for a large dinner party), place the jars of maceration (closed, with lids) on the trivet, then add enough water to the pot to reach about 2/3 the way to the top of the jars. I then remove the jars and, setting the electric burner to high (maximum), heat the water in the pot until it starts to visibly vaporize into steam---but before it boils. Then I turn down the heat to the lowest setting (keep warm), place the maceration jars back in the pot on the trivet, cover the pot, and let the macerations "cook" gently in the not-quite simmering water for six hours. At that point, I turn off the heat and let the jars rest for six hours. I repeat that 12-hour process four times over two days, then I filter the extract liquid.

My macerations aren't really "cooked," per se. The gentle heat of the water bath just speeds up the extraction process.

I'm not suggesting that anyone should do what I do. I'm just sharing what's working very well for me, since all my tobacco extractions---ten so far---are turning out wonderfully. I triple-filtered my most recent batch of four, done last week, and they all hit that sweet spot of being very flavorful but remarkably easy on coils. They're easily on a par with many of the best retail NETs I've had, and considerably better than some.
 

Chinook

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In my extractions, I never expose the macerations to direct heat, only indirect, and I use only low heat, never high or intense.

I put a trivet in a large pot (the size one would use to make pasta for a large dinner party), place the jars of maceration (closed, with lids) on the trivet, then add enough water to the pot to reach about 2/3 the way to the top of the jars. I then remove the jars and, setting the electric burner to high (maximum), heat the water in the pot until it starts to visibly vaporize into steam---but before it boils. Then I turn down the heat to the lowest setting (keep warm), place the maceration jars back in the pot on the trivet, cover the pot, and let the macerations "cook" gently in the not-quite simmering water for six hours. At that point, I turn off the heat and let the jars rest for six hours. I repeat that 12-hour process four times over two days, then I filter the extract liquid.

My macerations aren't really "cooked," per se. The gentle heat of the water bath just speeds up the extraction process.

I'm not suggesting that anyone should do what I do. I'm just sharing what's working very well for me, since all my tobacco extractions---ten so far---are turning out wonderfully. I triple-filtered my most recent batch of four, done last week, and they all hit that sweet spot of being very flavorful but remarkably easy on coils. They're easily on a par with many of the best retail NETs I've had, and considerably better than some.


Thanks Bill for sharing. Once you filter your extracts, do they smell like the "fresh" tobacco essence similar to what you'd smell when you rub them between your fingertips? Also, is there a specific reason for the on and off heat cycles? Just combing cold and hot macerations into one, in a way?

I have one cold maceration going in here. That's my baseline so far. That should at least give me some "fresh" tobacco flavors. My next step will be to improve those flavors. I will most likely start trying methods similar to yours since I'm not having much success with the quicker high heat methods.
 

billherbst

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I can't remember the last time I rubbed cut tobacco between my fingers and smelled it. Maybe 40 years ago when I smoked Three Castles Virginian and rolled my own? No particular reason why I don't do it before my macerations, but I haven't.

Although my extracts are fragrant enough for me to notice, the only thing I really care about is how they taste when vaped as mixed juices.

As for why I do the six-hours-on, six-hours-off thing (and then repeat that four times), I have no authoritative reasons to offer. I do four cycles because I'm too impatient to do five. I think six would be even better. I'm not worried about over-cooking because my process is low-heat and very gentle. I also don't stir my macerations during the extraction. Once capped in their jars, I try not to disturb the macerations. Why? I don't know, that's just what feels right to me.

The first time I tried the alternating heat-and-rest method, it was a complete experiment. The results were so good that I've simply kept it up. Something about giving the macerations "rest time" pleases me and makes sense at an intuitive level. It's not really like a cold maceration, because during the resting period, the water---which is probably somewhere around 190° F when I turn off the heat---takes the entire six hours to cool down enough to put my fingers in comfortably. I leave the pot lid on in both phases of the cycle to minimize evaporation during heating phase and preserve the water's temperature during the resting). When I move into the next "cooking" phase, I set the heat to HIGH again to very quickly return the water to a temperature where it's visibly steaming.

I've vaped about 90 retail NET juices, so I know how good NETs taste (and how not-so-good ones taste, too). What I'm looking for is a flavor and mouthfeel that makes my brain say, "Ah, REAL tobacco. Yum!" My home-brewed NETs provide that.
 

billherbst

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Have you tried using PG and VG macerations (separately) for the same tobaccos? If you did, do you prefer one or the other one?

Up until this last new batch, all my macerations were 75PG/25VG. That may have been the ratio Scarfy recommended in her thread on slow-cooked crockpot NETs, but I'm not sure. This last batch was extracted into 50/50 PG/VG.

Again, I have no substantive information, just opinion, bias, and hunch. I've settled on 50/50 as my "favorite" ejuice base ratio.

I haven't tried multiple extractions of the same tobacco using different base liquid ratios. What deters me in general from experimenting with my extractions is that the end products have been so good that I'm not inclined to mess with my process. You know, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. LOL.

So many variables exist that easy conclusions are uncertain. For instance, if we do two separate extractions of a given tobacco type, one using all-PG and the other in all-VG, and one or the other turns out substantially better, would that result be true for all macerations with different tobaccos, or does it simply happen to be true for that one particular tobacco? With regard to bases, does the cut of the tobacco matter? the freshness? the blend? length of the soak? whether the maceration is heat-assisted or cold-process? All those variable might matter, and it's quite possible that no simply conclusion can be drawn.

I'm inclined to regard extracting NETs less as science than as art. A little applied science may help or be useful, but finally all rules get thrown out the window in the creative process. But that's just my approach. Yours may be different.
 
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Chinook

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I agree about the art part of the process. There are so many variables here... It's kind of like coffee roasting -- in that case, letting the nose be the judge when to stop the roasting process. Hopefully, a good nose , LOL!

I'm glad that you found a process that works for you. And thanks again passing on your experiences to us.
 

Chinook

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My cold steep extract is about 10 days now. It developed a nice round tobacco aroma and it has kind of a dirty blonde color. At two weeks, I'll take out half of the mixture, and let the other half go for two more weeks of maceration.

I'll also start testing "slow cooker" method based on encouraging words from Bill :) I won't be able to replicate exactly what he does due to during-the-day time constraints I have, but it'll be more or less similar.
 
You all got me curious now. I just threw together an extraction process that went like this:

Tobacco American Spirits Organics Cigarette
Quantity 2 cigarettes
Base VG
Base Volume 21 mL
Method:

I am heating our place with a wood stove as it is storming outside. I put the tobacco and the VG into a 50ml brown glass bottle and set it on top of the wood stove for a nice slow cook. I just set the top on the bottle (did not screw it on at all). I will let it cook overnight and see what we have in the morning.

Stay tuned...
 

Chinook

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You all got me curious now. I just threw together an extraction process that went like this:

Tobacco American Spirits Organics Cigarette
Quantity 2 cigarettes
Base VG
Base Volume 21 mL
Method:

I am heating our place with a wood stove as it is storming outside. I put the tobacco and the VG into a 50ml brown glass bottle and set it on top of the wood stove for a nice slow cook. I just set the top on the bottle (did not screw it on at all). I will let it cook overnight and see what we have in the morning.

Stay tuned...

How did it turn out? I hope the top of the stove wasn't too hot.
 
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