New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers

[mikepetro]

I'm hoping more information becomes available in regards to kanthal specifically. Many of the stock coils that people buy for their devices are kanthal.

I dont think you are ever going to find it.

Unfortunately, at least to the best of my knowledge, no information exists that documents temperatures of kanthal wire except in some very specific combinations. I.e. for this mod at this wattage using this specific coil. Nothing generic enough to extrapolate to other combinations because kanthal is simply not a temperature wire.

There are just too many variables involved. TC works because the wire itself tells the temp.

Juul (and similar) devices can use temp control with nichrome because they totally control every one of the variables and can therefor test for them in advance.

 

[NU_FTW]

I am not overly concerned yet as to my vape being too warm, but suppose I want to get some ss 430 wire and experiment with a TC mod, wich wire should I get. I now mostly vape subtanks with 26 guage kanthal at .5-.7 ohms, what wire would duplicate the experience in stainless?

I personally went from 26 to 26 and the vape experience is nearly identical except now its more consistent.
Edit: Obviously ohms went down but I build my coils identical to how I did using kanthal. Watts just 5 watt increase but in tc average out to slightly less batteries last maybe 5-10% longer because of it

 

[DPLongo22]

But due to my health improvements I can state with 100% certainty that my vaping is safER than my smoking was.

 

[Imfallen_Angel]

I'm hearing a lot of "just use TC devices" and for some that's not an option for one reason or another. Some people like kanthal, or are allergic to other metals so there has to be a better response than that.

It's funny.. whenever I hear "can't".. I'm reminded of smokers that keep saying that they can't quit their cancer sticks.

People are just set in their ways, and every time I hear someone go on about khantal being the only one for them, and that TC sucks, I know that the person hasn't even really tried other metals or gave any a serious chance, especially SS, and never used TC or used it correctly.

Yeah, I'm sure that this must seem insulting to some, it's not, just stating the elephant in the room, so far it's been the truth with 100% of everyone I've seen that have said this sort of thing.

 

[beckdg]

Lmao yes man you're never wrong lol

You have to be a pwofessionaw vapo...



Tapatyped

 

[mikepetro]

It's funny.. whenever I hear "can't".. I'm reminded of smokers that keep saying that they can't quit their cancer sticks.

People are just set in their ways, and every time I hear someone go on about khantal being the only one for them, and that TC sucks, I know that the person hasn't even really tried other metals or gave any a serious chance, especially SS, and never used TC or used it correctly.

Yeah, I'm sure that this must seem insulting to some, it's not, just stating the elephant in the room, so far it's been the truth with 100% of everyone I've seen that have said this sort of thing.

One aspect of the issue is that a lot of folks stocked up a lifetime of supplies because of the FDA deeming. In many cases investing a lot of money in it. I can understand them not wanting to "obsolete" their stash.

 

[DPLongo22]

"Diacetyl!"

(Just for fun, and done to the tune of...)



I'll shut-up now. I promise. Bye.

 

[Bonskibon]

One aspect of the issue is that a lot of folks stocked up a lifetime of supplies because of the FDA deeming. In many cases investing a lot of money in it. I can understand them not wanting to "obsolete" their stash.

That's part of it for me, and also I just like using Kanthal. I've used SS before and it was ok, but still prefer kanthal for building. If there is no information with kanthal, I'm just not understanding a reason to stop using it.

 

[tj99959]

I dont think you are ever going to find it.

Unfortunately, at least to the best of my knowledge, no information exists that documents temperatures of kanthal wire except in some very specific combinations. I.e. for this mod at this wattage using this specific coil. Nothing generic enough to extrapolate to other combinations because kanthal is simply not a temperature wire.

There are just too many variables involved. TC works because the wire itself tells the temp.

Juul (and similar) devices can use temp control with nichrome because they totally control every one of the variables and can therefor test for them in advance.

NO..NO..NO ... That's not true, Kanthal is a very efficient temperature wire, and that's it's problem with TC devices. (ie. it doesn't change resistance as much when heated) Actually it's about the most stable temperature wire out there. You need "inefficient" temperature wire to make TC work.

 

[Lessifer]

That's part of it for me, and also I just like using Kanthal. I've used SS before and it was ok, but still prefer kanthal for building. If there is no information with kanthal, I'm just not understanding a reason to stop using it.

Please don't panic just yet. It's really not as if we don't have ANY information with kanthal. We have a number of studies, all using devices running either kanthal or nichrome, all saying(when you get down to the actual data) that the compounds we're concerned with aren't created until you exceed the recommended wattage range for that particular device.

Here are a couple of things we don't know: We don't know the temperatures people are running at using kanthal. We also don't know if a tc mode mod set at 500F produces ANY volatile compounds. This is what I've been continuing to ask about, just because the coil reaches 500F, that does not mean that the vg necessarily reaches 500F.

If you take a pan and heat it to 300F on a stove and then put some water in it, you will get steam and liquid water in the pan, and neither of them will reach 300F.

 

[AttyPops]

Cotton can only wick so fast. The wick only holds X amount of juice. A puff is only so long. And the wire temp....can be monitored or not.

To me, the wire-temp "curve" is what matters even for a 1.5 or 3 second puff on any device for any wire.

So yes, evaporative cooling works, but there's a lot of variables. What's the actual curve of the wire temp if it is unregulated? It could increase as it gets near the end of the puff. By monitoring the resistance of the wire (thus the actual temp of the wire), say 20 times per second, it avoids the wire getting too hot at ANY point in that curve. In fact, I assume the device actually dumps a LOT of current into the cold wire initially as the delta is larger, and then tapers it off as it nears the desired temp. There's a name for that algorithm that escapes me at the moment but it's adaptive.

And that's the consistency I think I'm tasting/experiencing.

 

[Katdarling]

It seems that simple to me and there are many wire types besides SS, NiFe52 (for me) gives a very similar vape experience to kanthal. But no, I'm not saying anything, I was just mentioning that having a bunch of something no reason to force yourself to keep using it... If you had a lifetime supply of goat penises, would you eat nothing but goat penises every day for the rest of your life?

Hmmm....... (thinking)

Once you figure this out, neither can you.

There'll be something else eventually.

But due to my health improvements I can state with 100% certainty that my vaping is safER than my smoking was.

I don't inhale foreign substances for the purpose of knowing it's 100% safe.

That would be safer than inhaling fresh air. I suppose that's not likely

Tapatyped

You have to be a pwofessionaw vapo...



Tapatyped

VICTOR!!!

 

[tj99959]

One aspect of the issue is that a lot of folks stocked up a lifetime of supplies because of the FDA deeming. In many cases investing a lot of money in it. I can understand them not wanting to "obsolete" their stash.

The funny part is that some of us did that "stockpiling" back when the FDA/Njoy thing was going on.
I've never bought a TC mod because I have enough mods to last about three lifetimes. A while back (in a different thread) we figured out that I will finally need to start restocking when I turn 126 years old.

 

[mikepetro]

That's part of it for me, and also I just like using Kanthal. I've used SS before and it was ok, but still prefer kanthal for building. If there is no information with kanthal, I'm just not understanding a reason to stop using it.

The information (if believed) is about carcinogens at high temperatures.

The problem with kanthal is that you dont know if you are exceeding these temps or not, precisely because there is no information.

 

[mikepetro]

NO..NO..NO ... That's not true, Kanthal is a very efficient temperature wire, and that's it's problem with TC devices. (ie. it doesn't change resistance as much when heated) Actually it's about the most stable temperature wire out there. You need "inefficient" temperature wire to make TC work.

OK, you are just confusing the uninitiated.

The technical term we should be using is "temperature sensing" wire, of which kanthal is not.

 

[Zutankhamun]

Please don't panic just yet. It's really not as if we don't have ANY information with kanthal. We have a number of studies, all using devices running either kanthal or nichrome, all saying(when you get down to the actual data) that the compounds we're concerned with aren't created until you exceed the recommended wattage range for that particular device.

Here are a couple of things we don't know: We don't know the temperatures people are running at using kanthal. We also don't know if a tc mode mod set at 500F produces ANY volatile compounds. This is what I've been continuing to ask about, just because the coil reaches 500F, that does not mean that the vg necessarily reaches 500F.

If you take a pan and heat it to 300F on a stove and then put some water in it, you will get steam and liquid water in the pan, and neither of them will reach 300F.

I haven't read many pages so excuse me if it's been said but @Lessifer is right. Can you imagine if your vg/pg/flavours or nic get to 232 degrees centigrade.
The vape would be unimaginable. Besides I use poly tanks mostly. Strange if they could handle 232 degrees.
I dont suppose that glass would fare that well either

 

[Plettschner]

We also don't know if a tc mode mod set at 500F produces ANY volatile compounds. This is what I've been continuing to ask about, just because the coil reaches 500F, that does not mean that the vg necessarily reaches 500F.

Im pretty sure that is not how it works.




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[Vesh]

The old tootle puffers CE4s are not safe at any power level.

Our own Dr. @Kurt who also attended:

Start watching about 20 minutes into it:

scary stuff, since i thought those old low watt devices were the safest. I wonder if cig a likes are effected? Those generally run at 7 watts ish when averaged out. If that.

However, one thing I noticed, they are talking about dry hits..I can clearly taste even a slight dry hit, can't pretty much everyone? Or is there something else I am missing here?

Interesting that i have just started MTL temp control with vaporshark naut coils and triton mini temp coils.. i wish they would make stainless steel versions though. I already had it set at 440 farenheit so that's good, i wasn't over.
Also, am i mis reading the charts, or is 1 puff of a CE4 worse than a pack of cigs?

 

[mikepetro]

I haven't read many pages so excuse me if it's been said but @Lessifer is right. Can you imagine if your vg/pg/flavours or nic get to 232 degrees centigrade.
The vape would be unimaginable. Besides I use poly tanks mostly. Strange if they could handle 232 degrees.
I dont suppose that glass would fare that well either

Most tanks can handle 232C no problem. The actual chamber that heats up is metal, not poly. I regularly vape at 440F so I know its possible.

 

[tj99959]

OK, you are just confusing the uninitiated.

The technical term we should be using is "temperature sensing" wire, of which kanthal is not.

Much better, but still not quite there, we just haven't developed the means of sensing temperature with kanthal .... YET

I would go so far as suggesting that when we do develop the means, kanthal will again become the wire of choice because of it's stability.