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New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers

Discussion in 'General Vaping Discussion' started by mikepetro, Mar 6, 2017.

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  1. Rossum

    Rossum Surly Curmudgeon Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Dec 14, 2013
    NE FL
    My perspective:
    I think you've firmly determined that some carbonyls are produced when coil temperatures get into and exceed the 450°F range. But have we established that these levels actually exceed those found in tobacco smoke? Have we established that these levels actually present a significant health risk? Let's not forget that carbonyls are far from the only (or the most potent) carcinogens in tobacco smoke. Let's not forget that most of us voluntarily indulge in various "carcinogens" on a regular basis in the form of grilled and processed meats.
     
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  2. Rossum

    Rossum Surly Curmudgeon Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Dec 14, 2013
    NE FL
    What lots of people now call "addictive" used to be referred to as "habit-forming". There's little doubt that nicotine is habit-forming for many people. But the term "addictive" was only used when the habit included obvious harm, or disruption of a person's life, or more than minor physical withdrawal symptoms. None of this seems to apply to nicotine by itself, although some of it might apply to tobacco.
     
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  3. mikepetro

    mikepetro Vape Geek Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    In my testing of actual vaping I did not detect levels exceeding cigarettes, nor have I ever claimed it.

    I think the only mention in this thread about levels EXCEEDING tobacco smoke were by Dr Kurt on the CE4 device
    upload_2018-2-1_9-48-53.png


    And by John with respect Acetaldehyde at temps consistently at/around 500f and above.
    [​IMG]


    The only metric I know to use would be the OSHA workday limits. I dont know what the breakpoint is to be considered harmful, and I am not qualified to make any claims regarding that.

    My position is, that if you can reduce the amount of nasties by managing the temperature of your vape, and still get a satisfying vape, then why not? It is clear that as temp increases, above ~440f, so do the nasties, at some point they skyrocket, and this occurs before you can taste it.

    Just because a human can tolerate 15grains (made up #) of arsenic without it being harmful doent mean we shouldnt try to minimize arsenic exposure nonetheless.
     
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  4. stols001

    stols001 Mistress of the Dark Nicotinic Arts Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    May 30, 2017
    Tucson, AZ
    It is true that with everything we are exposed to these days, minimizing risks where known is a good thing.

    I tend to be a little more risk tolerant than many, but I find the older I get, the more risk-averse I become. I think it has to do with a lot of things including a) real world experience b) knowledge that as I age, I have become more fragile... I mean really, even a cold is harder to get over (although I do feel a bit like I've stepped back in time) as well as some risks I have taken in the past that I KNOW have probably reduced my life-expectancy by a fair amount, as well as my quality of life (we're talking major, life style things.)

    I used to think "Live fast, die pretty" was a valuable motto in the day. I have changed it to "Live as long as you can, leaving behind a wizened, ugly corpse with arthritis and dentures," to be more realistic, although my doc informs me via some test that I will get arthritis in my mid-90s. LOL. To be fair, the women in my family tend to DIE old, but IDK about "mid nineties" although both my grandmothers lived into their nineties and my mom is 70. She has some arthritis, I don't, but I blame yoga for that one.

    Seriously though, everything's a tradeoff. I got so thin my last few years smoking, I have actually LAID off the yoga on purpose because I couldn't keep body fat to save my life.... I figure with another 10 lbs on board, it may be easier to go back to it and not skeletalize myself. The dentures I already have, but that was a "special" situation.

    Also, I find as I age, I only grow happier, and I certainly wasn't expecting that outcome, so why risk my precious "good times" any more than I must?

    My first therapist told me I'd get happier the older I got. She also told me I'd quit smoking someday. She was kind of my spiritual mom, but I did not believe her in the slightest. I now kind of do... :)

    With that said, most forms of vaping are going to be infinitely more safe than cigarettes, and I will repeat, again, for those intimidated by the idea of TC, there are THINGS still to be done to minimize risk. I'm never going to give up on my Nautilus coils, and they can't do TC. I do use distilled water AND PEG400 to thin my vape, and not only is it noticeably cooler (and I rotate my setups when chainvaping) the vape is actually improved, which I did not expect. Knowing your atomizer, your tank, your e-liquid and safest practices have all IMPROVED my non-TC vaping, even without using TC (which I use when it's applicable/indicated) and not only that, they didn't just cool my tanks, they improved my vape.

    There is valuable information on this thread even for non-TC vapers should they choose to heed it. Even WITHOUT those best practices, I felt health improvements right away, and I feel them even more. TC can be finicky, hard to set up, and intimidating at first, but I see absolutely no reason that ONE person cannot find at least ONE piece of information on this thread to improve their vape, and I actually read this thread from the beginning (as a new vaper, freaking out, going OH I MUST TC TO LIVE). That's not actually accurate, but what IS accurate is that there are valuable takeaways from this thread for ANYONE.

    Just try not to get too freaked out about it in the beginning, is my advice. It did get me to RTAs more quickly, another thing I am grateful for.

    Also, there is only so much precision you need in life in order to make conclusions from data. You'd be amazed at some of the stuff folks and cultures have been able to discover (including genetics, which I believe was started by a Franciscan monk gardener, IIRC, without sophisticated measuring tools.)

    Good luck to all and I think this thread has been one of the more useful ones on ECF (for me).

    :Anna
     
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  5. gerrymi

    gerrymi Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Jul 12, 2013
    The 'Burgh, PA.
    Being a vaper for 4+ years...I still view friends/acquaintances/strangers in 2 distinct groups...(same as I did when I was a smoker):

    NON-SMOKERS...(on the whole)...kinda boring...I always wear my seatbelt and go to church on Sundays...people...

    SMOKERS...(on the whole)...devil-may-care, interesting and intriguing people...(but who now (to me) smell a little bad)...

    ..
     
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  6. DPLongo22

    DPLongo22 Variety IS the spice of vaping. Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Dec 17, 2011
    Midworld
    Fonts are heartless little bastiges.
     
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  7. quickbot

    quickbot Full Member

    Dec 9, 2014
    Riga, Latvia, Latvia
    *turns down TC to 200C* So as i understand it right maxpossible- safest temperature is 200 degrees? Just turned it down and vape feels the same.
     
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  8. mikepetro

    mikepetro Vape Geek Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    My testing showed nothing negative below 225C*, so I think you are more than good at 200.
     
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  9. Katdarling

    Katdarling Bling Kween and spreadsheet monster. ;) Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Jan 25, 2011
    Utopia
    Risking ridiculous redundancy...


     
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  10. Fredman1

    Fredman1 Super Member ECF Veteran

    Mar 27, 2017
    New Zealand
    Amen Sista :thumbs:
     
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  11. mikepetro

    mikepetro Vape Geek Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    @Mazinny should be getting his Provari back today.

    As a thank you to both of these guys for their generous loan I included a DNA75 with their package. I got them at a crackhead price and bought far too many in a moment of cheapskate shineyitus. They are a decent mod though and I couldnt pass up the deal. Then I realized I would never use them, as in why the hell did I buy them in the first place? So I PIFd them to these guys who I hope can get some use out of them.
     
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  12. 440BB

    440BB Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Apr 19, 2011
    The Motor City
    This was very kind of you Mike on top of all the time and money you invested in getting us this information.

    Thank you!

    I guess it's time for me to learn Escribe. Glad there's a manual!

    [​IMG]
     
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  13. mikepetro

    mikepetro Vape Geek Verified Member ECF Veteran

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  14. Fiestylillady

    Fiestylillady Senior Member

    Dec 14, 2017
    USA
    At 200c I barely get a vape. (Not arguing the science/data). But does my tc not with or am I going something wrong? I know there is heat because the cotton burns I think because of my constant or long pulses. What watt are you all setting at 200c? Or am I going above this in wattage mode because I'm getting more am getting satisfying vape? What are the more affordable and reliable tc mods? (Tried tc so far on mesh and now blitzen both on alien) any help is appreciated.
     
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  15. Fredman1

    Fredman1 Super Member ECF Veteran

    Mar 27, 2017
    New Zealand
    Yeah I have a love/hate thing going with TC. It works well for the most part, but has its times when it slows down. For some reason it just mellows down to a beyond par vape. My different devices all takes turns to do that. I then put it back to power mode and all is well again.
    I've noticed it when the battery is lowish and after a refill(wick is a bit over saturated), but other times its for no apparent reason.
    Yeah it seems to me TC can be finnicky and temperamental...
     
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  16. ScottP

    ScottP Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Apr 9, 2013
    Houston, TX
    What device? The only time I have ever seen that is when the coil gets gunked up and needs cleaning.
     
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  17. mikepetro

    mikepetro Vape Geek Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Is the wick well saturated?
    200 is a little low, try 225
    What chip set is in the mod?
    What type of wire are you using?
    Try setting the watts real high, like double what you use in wattage mode, but keep your temp between 200 and 225.

    Pics of your atty build might help.
    More details of your mod setup would help.
     
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  18. mikepetro

    mikepetro Vape Geek Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    When the battery is low you may be getting a large voltage drop. Make sure you use good name brand batteries. @Mooch does excellent battery reviews in his blog.

    Many of us have noticed that 3166ss can drop in resistance after it has been used a while. Reset the cold resistance on your mod by unscrewing the atty, pressing the fire button, then screw the cold atty back in and let it read the resistance again. That may well get you back on track.

    Fancy coils like fused Claptons can do this for me. It is usually either because they are gunked or because the resistance changed.

    And as noted above, as your coil get gunked you will see lower vapor, clean the coil, or (less desirable) bump the temp up a little to compensate.

    One last trick is get it where it is vaping well for you, then turn on the resistance lock.
     
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  19. Fredman1

    Fredman1 Super Member ECF Veteran

    Mar 27, 2017
    New Zealand
    Thanks guys. I use
    JAC DNA 75 and Ehpro 101 mods. I'm overly careful with batteries and only use the good name ones.
    I'll play around with what you said and see how I go. I'm learning heaps about TC as I go. Will definitely persist with it, because its just a matter of learning and understanding it.


    *Edit to add* Come to think of it, every time I get frustrated with TC, I learn something....that's called progress, right? :D
     
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  20. Fiestylillady

    Fiestylillady Senior Member

    Dec 14, 2017
    USA
     

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