New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers

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kiba

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I also have vaped my tank dry many a time while working at home or sitting in front of my gaming rig. Never had to worry about this stuff vaping on genny's for years untill I switched to cotton. it's the original reason I started using TC, and also after noticing that SS gives cleaner flavor. first time I did that with a TC mod I was like oh crap, took it apart and saw an almost dry but unburned wick, and I was immediately sold.

It also fits great for my style of squonking, just the if I oversquonk, or undersquonk, it really doesn't matter, bc I use bf atty's that are really drainy.
 

soulseek

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Very interesting thread and studies. Unfortunately, I haven't had time to go through the methodology and assumptions of each, to get a clearer picture.

I' ve been a fan of TC since it was first introduced, not only for safety reasons but because of its potential to provide consistent flavour and vapour experience. Unfortunately, if you're using rebuildable atomisers and aren't knowledgeable, it doesn't always work right.

Before I have time to delve into the studies/videos there's two things I'd like to point out.

Coil temperature is not equal to the temperature of your vapour. There's different things to take into account such as airflow, heat transfer to the wick/air etc. Furthermore, real time vaping doesn't come close to a closed system, whereas the steel chamber heating the VG/PG is much closer to it. You're constantly vapourising your juice and at the same time inhaling, hence providing a constant flow of air that removes the vapour while at the same time cooling the liquid in your wick. What I'm trying to say is that just because we estimate that our coil temperature is 260C it doesn't imply that the VG/PG that we inhale has at any point reached this temperature. However, I'm certain that it is fairly easy to simulate airflow and vaping in a TC device into a collecting chamber that can then analyse this vapour for aldehyde etc. I'm hoping someone is testing this currently because from my brief reading, this is not what these studies have done.

Having said this, until we know more, I've always advised everyone I know to use TC below 240C and try and vape MTL. Indeed, higher wattage device with higher thermal mass coils also come with larger airflows. Hence, temperatures may not rise as much as we've suspected. However, I vape at 230C MTL and I've tried various tanks with large clapton coils and large airflow at 80W and the vapour seems way to warm for me. More importantly, you're going inhaling way more vapour and burning through more juice than with a MTL device, hence exposing yourself furthermore.
 
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cigatron

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You mean like I already explained is a slightly more tactful manner in more than one on my posts?

It doesn't need to be "precise".. a user will feel the difference in heat of their vape and will adjust accordingly.

From coil to coil, differences in how much wire you have, the ohm, the gauge, the size of the coil, etc. will all impact

The point of TC is to have a stable vape, so that I have a coil that I have to set at 300F, or another that I set at 500F, I have absolutely no questions about it, it's just a setting that I put it to balance my vapour output.. the actual temperature of my vape is going to be pretty much the same coming out of my mouthpiece, simply because I have the ability to judge heat with my mouth, and I'm sure everyone else does too.

EVERYTIME someone ask about how to set their TC, anyone that knows anything about TC, will explain to the person the same thing... set a basic start wattage, a low temp setting, and increase both to the point that you get you "sweet spot". Temp setting for the max heat, and wattage being for how fast it gets there.

No one ever tells anyone that a specific setting is "the" only setting to use. (at least they shouldn't and if they do, they are not someone that has a clue to what they are talking about)

Just to add to my last post..

TC just isn't a number you set and go... the tank used, the wicking, the airflow, all will impact the actual temperature of the vapour.. and so will the liquid used, you could refill your tank with a different flavour from last time and suddenly, you have no more warmth and have to increase the TC setting.

For example:
If I rebuild with a brand new coil and even if I did it as close as possible as the last one, same length, same size, same OHM reading, same gauge, I still will NOT assume that I can use the exact same settings I had simply because I might wick it a bit more than last time, my cotton might be a tad different and wick differently, the positioning might be a little different in placement to the airflow. I will "reset" my parameters on my mod and increase them as required.

Setting TC values is about setting parameters, nothing more.

Well I have to disagree with some of that. I hope you don't mind cuz that's what we're all here for it seems. Nothing wrong with disagreeing imo, that's what a debate is all about, arguing points without insulting one another.

There is an element that you are missing in determining whether your COIL is at a safe temperature. Heat dissipation of the vapor by the atty on the way to your mouth.
The study and this thread are focused on carbonyls being produced at elevated liquid temps, not what it feels like when it gets to your mouth. Different attys cool the vapor at different levels based on their design and material type eg a stumpy rda puts your mouth very close to the heat source where a K5 puts you further away where much more vapor cooling can transpire before reaching your mouth.
Point is, the carbonyls are being created at the hottest place (coil) and it's not going to go away just because your vapor is cooled on the way to your mouth.
Tc mods calculate temp at the coil where it counts.
 

cigatron

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Very interesting thread and studies. Unfortunately, I haven't had time to go through the methodology and assumptions of each, to get a clearer picture.

I' ve been a fan of TC since it was first introduced, not only for safety reasons but because of its potential to provide consistent flavour and vapour experience. Unfortunately, if you're using rebuildable atomisers and aren't knowledgeable, it doesn't always work right.

Before I have time to delve into the studies/videos there's two things I'd like to point out.

Coil temperature is not equal to the temperature of your vapour. There's different things to take into account such as airflow, heat transfer to the wick/air etc. Furthermore, real time vaping doesn't come close to a closed system, whereas the steel chamber heating the VG/PG is much closer to it. You're constantly vapourising your juice and at the same time inhaling, hence providing a constant flow of air that removes the vapour while at the same time cooling the liquid in your wick. What I'm trying to say is that just because we estimate that our coil temperature is 260C it doesn't imply that the VG/PG that we inhale has at any point reached this temperature. However, I'm certain that it is fairly easy to simulate airflow and vaping in a TC device into a collecting chamber that can then analyse this vapour for aldehyde etc. I'm hoping someone is testing this currently because from my brief reading, this is not what these studies have done.

Having said this, until we know more, I've always advised everyone I know to use TC below 240C and try and vape MTL. Indeed, higher wattage device with higher thermal mass coils also come with larger airflows. Hence, temperatures may not rise as much as we've suspected. However, I vape at 230C MTL and I've tried various tanks with large clapton coils and large airflow at 80W and the vapour seems way to warm for me. More importantly, you're going inhaling way more vapour and burning through more juice than with a MTL device, hence exposing yourself furthermore.

Beat me to it by 2 min.
 
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Eskie

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Thank you for this.

Most of the video went right over my head. I get that the first video posted, he is just trying to make vaping at higher temps safer by letting the user monitor the variables. (?)

I applaud that regardless of whatever the FDA is doing, we still have people constantly looking at vaping and trying to make it as safe as possible given all the new ways we push the envelope.

Also kudos to those who question and not just blindly follow.

I do have major objection: the use of the term ENDS. That is an ANTZ name for ecigs. I truly hope that Evolve drops that practice.

Not sure which first video you mean. The welcome one by whatever his name who it starts out with?

I think it's also important to look at who some of those presenters were and where they got their funding. There were presenters (Levy) who had funding from very strong anti-smoking groups (in his case the Bloomberg Foundation and he's a nut about smoking) who acknowledge benefits and that harm reduction is possible. Are they being cautious how it's all presented? Sure. They don't want to look stupid when 15 years from now we all have frogs growing out of our right shoulders.

All this stuff, even the hedged cautiously optimistic crowd lend more credibility in opposing excessive regulation. It's a lot harder for the FDA to say "this stuff is poison" when the mainstream crowd is coming around. And we've only been seeing this mainstream stuff the last year or so. Whatever positive studies were out there were limited to either specific researchers (no knock on Dr. F, but you do need more than one person's findings and conclusions here) or small scale studies. Now we're finally getting a bit of meat to chew on. And it's that stuff that can be used to whack the FDA with, which won't be nearly as easily to brush off and discount.
 

soulseek

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Both gun and camera, cant replicate a closed chamber with the airflow of a vape.

Do you have access to a good air compressor? You should be able to replicate it by pointing the camera from the top into the atomiser and introducing a constant air flow through the bottom air holes of an atomiser, using the compressor.
 

happy valley

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On a utube vid, Ben from HohmTech is asked if it wouldn't be more accurate to call the TC on the Wrecker G2 'temp guessing', and he acquiesces. He then further insinuates though it would be possible to incorporate true temp reading into the fine electronics of their device, in their estimation it would be priced beyond what the market would bear.
 
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NU_FTW

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What is interesting is the bias this thread has taken. People who use TC interpret the results to support there bias, while ignoring the real world results of Kurt that shows essentially no problem with third generation tanks.

CE4's are junk and that has been well known for a long time. The top coil design with very long wicks is an outdated design for many reasons. it is not at all surprising they have major problems with overheating. Modern tanks with a bottom coil design that keeps the wick saturated solves the issue as Kurt's study shows. Kanthal appears to be well within the tolerance level for safe vaping with a third generation tank in the real world, but that is not what is being heard on this thread.

Most of what we are hearing are conclusions the studies do not support, in fact contradict (if that sounds familiar it is the trademark of the junk science coming out of tobacco control).
that's quite the broad brush.
 

awsum140

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Finally got caught up.

Unless I'm missing something, everyone seems to be centered on dry hits. We all know how bad they taste and now, are starting to get an idea of why they taste so bad and what is in them to make them taste so bad. But, from my take on things, those nasty things can happen at high enough levels to be of concern EVEN if we can't taste them. Anyone know what formaldehyde tastes like? How about ketones, especially when heated? Does anyone know if potentially dangerous levels can be tasted by anyone? The graphs from Evolv (I know vested interest) clearly show the rapid rise in temperature, beyond the "magic" 470F mark and I can't believe, since these were obtained from "real world" vaping, that users would repeatedly take "dry" or nasty hits. Vaping still isn't "old" enough to rule out just about any, long term, health issues it might create.

If a TC device, as they exist now, can't accurately measure temperature, exactly how is temperature measured, with high accuracy, by thermocouples which operate in exactly the same way? Granted, we're not talking about NBS standards here, but they should, and I stress should, be a fairly accurate representation of the overall temperature of the wire in the coil, all of the wire. Yes, there can be hot spots and cool spots which are a concern as well, but at east a reasonably accurate representation.

Being old, conservative and cautious in my old age, I'll stick with TC mods and yes, I own Evolv mods and TC mods from other manufaturers as well.

Once again, thanks for starting this, Mike.
 

mikepetro

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Do you have access to a good air compressor? You should be able to replicate it by pointing the camera from the top into the atomiser and introducing a constant air flow through the bottom air holes of an atomiser, using the compressor.
I tried it with a fan, no idea what CFM I draw in a normal vape. Anyway, the camera matched what the mod said, and the mod maintained the same temp (according to the camera) when I turned the fan on and off.

IR000006_zpsx4pxnoas.jpg
 
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Robino1

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ENDS is FDA speak, doubt it will ever go away.

Trying to find who started the term. Coming up blank at the moment.

Heck, I've got a Kayfun lying around somewhere . . . what's your normal build and wattage? If I have the right gauge TC wire, I'll build it up in SS or something and see what the temperature reading is while I fire it.

Normal build is 2.4 (or thereabouts) coil with kanthal. 3.4-3.6 volts. ProVari doesn't do watts. Someone else will have to figure out what the translation from volts to watts ;)
 

NU_FTW

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I don't know... I just want to be happy with what I have and now feel I have to change everything up and not to excited about that. I was doing great for just shy of a year with my gear. I'm just a little disheartened is all.
same thing happened with diketones , people make informed decisions every day of what an acceptable risk is or whether or not after information is presented if they even view it as a risk. Don't get so down on your self
 

Robino1

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Dont know who coined it, but the FDA used that acronym in their Deeming regs.

I know this is way off topic but I am trying to search ECF also. I was pretty sure that WHO started the ENDS terminology. I cannot find anything to back it up at the moment.

Either way, I still despise that term. :oops:

Back to topic.... Sorry about that folks! :blush:
 

cigatron

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The reasons stated above are exactly why I won't use mods which rely on just a TCR setting. Just look at a TFR range for most any wire type and you can see what an inaccurate method that is for measuring electrical resistivity.

On my TFR graphs I also like to have a reference point every 50F within the range I like to vape at for good measure. It can only help it be more accurate.

Example: this is about what my csv looks like for 430SS
253ae066ac7c7b030dfb0e6e76305d71.jpg

6fbde657a91737e2cd9996854d8f2431.jpg

Yep, the tcr is an average (plotted linear). I use manual tcr on all my mods, including my dna mods because the tfr is linear enough in my vaping range. Don't really care what its doing from room temp to 420°f because the linear tcr tfr is always at, near or below the true tfr curve.
 

Flavored

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Trying to find who started the term. Coming up blank at the moment.



Normal build is 2.4 (or thereabouts) coil with kanthal. 3.4-3.6 volts. ProVari doesn't do watts. Someone else will have to figure out what the translation from volts to watts ;)
What sized wire?
(when you said you were a tootle puffer, you weren't kidding . . . ;) )
 

scutterflux

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I wonder what effect adding H2O to the VG has, I had been adding water as a Temp control of sorts in an effort to reduce Acrolein. If you can reduce the boiling point it should keep the temperatures as a whole lower, the vapour is removed from the heat source at the boiling point and if it's lower will also draw heat away from the coil faster if juice is present and being vapourized.

Glycerine - Boiling and Freezing Points

Also those levels reported are they safe? (I'll be looking this up and reading this thread later) or is this more scare tactics?

Thanks for the info
 

WillyZee

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Imfallen_Angel

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Well I have to disagree with some of that. I hope you don't mind cuz that's what we're all here for it seems. Nothing wrong with disagreeing imo, that's what a debate is all about, arguing points without insulting one another.

There is an element that you are missing in determining whether your COIL is at a safe temperature. Heat dissipation of the vapor by the atty on the way to your mouth.
The study and this thread are focused on carbonyls being produced at elevated liquid temps, not what it feels like when it gets to your mouth. Different attys cool the vapor at different levels based on their design and material type eg a stumpy rda puts your mouth very close to the heat source where a K5 puts you further away where much more vapor cooling can transpire before reaching your mouth.
Point is, the carbonyls are being created at the hottest place (coil) and it's not going to go away just because your vapor is cooled on the way to your mouth.
Tc mods calculate temp at the coil where it counts.

Well you need to consider that the moment that the liquid is evaporated (which is near instantaneous) it is being replaced by cooler liquid, and the airflow is also cooling things a lot.

From what I understand you saying, the gray area is on the surface of the coil, how long does the liquid stay in this surface before it's evaporated and is that sufficient to break the molecules down.

Thing is, from a scientific view, once the coil is hot enough, the liquid doesn't really make contact with it, in simple terms, it creates a "floating area" (for lack of better term) where the liquid is absorbing the heat and evaporating at the same rate that it's being pulled away by the airflow. It's basically a "pressure" created by the heat and conversion of the liquid to it's aerosol state. Think of it as a very hot plate where you drop water on it.. the drops will actually not be touching the hot place but are suspended by the steam being produce by the heat radiating. That steam is at 100C and is being released and not going to get hotter unless you'd trap it and expose it to more heat.

So it's more complex than just liquid touching the hot coil... it's heat dissipation by evaporation but for it to work, you still need airflow.

And that's why if you aren't taking a pull and creating that airflow, TC kicks in near instantly. The liquid by itself isn't enough to absorb all the heat

The "danger" in my opinion is more about when you end up with the crap (sweeteners and such) that does not evaporate and end up attaching itself to the coil, and why I mentioned in an earlier posts that having a clean coil would be very important.

But run a coil under cold running water, TC will never trigger because the heat is being absorbed faster than the power to the coil is applied. Should you go with a massive amount of power to a small coil, until you reach a plasma phase type heat, the running water will continue to suck in the heat preventing the coil to even go red.

But in the meanwhile, at a certain level, done right, that coil can create a "cushion" of steam around it and the water no longer touches the metal directly... BUT the water's in close proximity will never go beyond it's boiling temperature, and this turns into the same scenario, where the evaporated water isn't staying there, it's airborne, and instantly replaced by cooler water that's not yet heated enough to be steam, and so on...

Should you obtain that goal and manage to glow a coil while running it under cold water, you're at levels of power that I wouldn't touch without a safety wall between me and that coil, as at that point, you're going into super-heating territory.
 
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