New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers

[mikepetro]

By Doctor F dated Jan 2015:

Our team is currently working on identifying the temperature of the dry-puff phenomenon and evaluating the levels of aldehydes released at those temperatures as well as in temperatures associated with conventional vaping. We will have the results available in a few months, and we hope that this will end the speculation

Has anyone seen anything from him on this since then?

 

[Lessifer]

Interesting reading:
Appears to objective.



http://ajplung.physiology.org/content/309/12/L1398

Do you really believe this?
"Therefore, it is also possible that E-Cig users will “learn” to overcome any unpleasant taste due to increased aldehyde production if the nicotine drive is great enough."

If you've ever had a full on dry hit, do you really think that is something you could learn to overcome?

 

[Eskie]

Hear, hear, Mr. L.

Pardon the interruption, all, but I'm thinking that I may need to get rid of my much-valued-and-used generator now.
Carbon Monoxide Kills More Americans Than Mass Shootings, Terrorism Combined | American Council on Science and Health

I welcome any and all opinions, and am prepared to roll it out to the curb for pickup later today. Screw electricity. I mean, if it's not 100% safe...

"So eat healthy and exercise, buckle your seat belt, stop texting while driving, and put down that cigarette."

That works for me.

I'm hoping you wise folks will completely ignore this entire post, as it is purely tongue-in-cheek (for the most part, anyway).

Damn. And here I thought there was a nice generator up for adoption.

One of the first links I clicked on was the link to Kurt's presentation. Him I trust completely. He truly does have our interests at heart. Others...I don't trust so much. I will read and take it into consideration and let all the techies duke it out and watch (while inserting a post here and there) the thread unfold.

I do trust you. I watch and read most everyone that is on this thread. Some I agree with and some I don't. Depends on what is being discussed at that moment. I value everyone's opinion. How else do we learn?

Not really worried and being over cautious. I know what a dry hit is, I know how to avoid them. Once you have just one, you pretty much watch for it so you can avoid them.

I also know that I am in much better condition than I was 4 years ago. I don't think I will be going the TC route. I will continue on my merry little tootle puffing way

The only information that matters to us vapers was referenced from that Annals of Internal Medicine study that did look for the presence of stuff like Acrolein and other VOCs. There is was pretty clear that vapers were at significantly reduced levels than smokers. So either those vapers never exceeded the magic 470F, or in real life use it doesn't happen much. The bad news was for dual users (sorry) where levels of toxins were pretty much the same as in smokers. E-Cigarettes and Toxin Exposure | Annals of Internal Medicine | American College of Physicians That's sort of a damper for dual users here, but that's what was found.

So these data pretty much indicate that under specific conditions toxins can be produced. It does not support toxin production must be reduced by TC, otherwise the Subtank data would be off (which certainly is possible). However, what would be interesting to see is both formaldehyde/Acetaldehyde production with TC set to varying points, and then see if that use in people results in even lower levels of toxins measured in the Annals article. The levels were detectable in vapers, just not as much. Maybe it could be even lower. But that's conjecture without more information.

 

[Mowgli]

Short version - temperature matters - keep your wick wet

I see a bumper sticker

 

[mikepetro]

Do you really believe this?
"Therefore, it is also possible that E-Cig users will “learn” to overcome any unpleasant taste due to increased aldehyde production if the nicotine drive is great enough."

If you've ever had a full on dry hit, do you really think that is something you could learn to overcome?

At low levels, I believe it is possible. Not talking about devil-.... dry hit, but maybe it is possible at the low end of bad.

For example, the first time I ever had a beer I thought it was putrid, that changed over time, quite possibly from the "reward" of the alcohol component, otherwise I would likely not have ever had a second one..

 

[Robino1]

Similarly, these aldehydes are known to be released from vegetable oil (of which glycerol is a major component) when it is heated during cooking, even to 180°C, which is close to temperatures reported for E-Cigs (130–350°C)

How can they even compare to oil? Just because vegetable oil contains VG? Sounds like a witch hunt to me. That sounds like the old 'antifreeze' argument from a few years ago.

They just lost me on that along with what Lessifer posted in post #742.

 

[Lessifer]

For example, the first time I ever had a beer I thought it was putrid, that changed over time, quite possibly from the "reward" of the alcohol component, otherwise I would likely not have ever had a second one..

Right, no, I get that. That would be the same as a smoker learning to get over the taste. We're talking about vaping though where the "reward" scenario is much different, especially after a vaper gets beyond the initial break from smoking.

Not saying it's impossible, just that it's likely uncommon. Consider the thousands of threads on this and other forums that begin with something like "my vape tastes bad, how do I fix it?"

 

[Robino1]

At low levels, I believe it is possible. Not talk about devil-.... dry hit, but maybe it is possible at the low end of bad.

For example, the first time I ever had a beer I thought it was putrid, that changed over time, quite possibly from the "reward" of the alcohol component, otherwise I would likely not have ever had a second one..

You forget that tobacco companies deliberately put things in the tobacco to numb our throats so that the smoke doesn't turn us off from smoking.

Cigarettes were engineered to be as palatable as possible. That way they could be marketed to the masses.

All those commercials telling us how smooth one cigarette is over another brand.

 

[mikepetro]

Do you really believe this?
"Therefore, it is also possible that E-Cig users will “learn” to overcome any unpleasant taste due to increased aldehyde production if the nicotine drive is great enough."

If you've ever had a full on dry hit, do you really think that is something you could learn to overcome?

Oh, and I never said I believed all of it, just interesting is all.

 

[Flavored]

Easiest way to wrap....that coil wrapping gizmo...Coil Master. Ummmm how many? About 10? ROFL

Don't worry about it. I really do think I am safe'ish

And I think you're very safe, as well. Wrapped a 10 wrap, 30 g, Ni coil on a 2 mm mandrel, hooked the second one up (yes, mangled #1 quite well), eased the wick through, and saturated it with juice. Put just the chimney on for this test. Max watts was set to 8, Temp to 440. It hit those 8 watts with temperatures bouncing into the low to mid 200's. Bumped Watts up 16, got more vapor, temperature in the 300's. Crept up as the wick dried to the temperature limit. I re-dripped and the scenario repeated itself very well. At 6-7 W, you should be fine.

I don't know how much tank resistance Evolv accounts for in their measurement. They say they do, this tank is 0.06 to 0.07, which might be a little higher than they'd expect, but you're still OK as long as you know how to wick.

The real question is how the heck do you vape like that?

 

[Robino1]

And I think you're very safe, as well. Wrapped a 10 wrap, 30 g, Ni coil on a 2 mm mandrel, hooked the second one up (yes, mangled #1 quite well), eased the wick through, and saturated it with juice. Put just the chimney on for this test. Max watts was set to 8, Temp to 440. It hit those 8 watts with temperatures bouncing into the low to mid 200's. Bumped Watts up 16, got more vapor, temperature in the 300's. Crept up as the wick dried to the temperature limit. I re-dripped and the scenario repeated itself very well. At 6-7 W, you should be fine.

I don't know how much tank resistance Evolv accounts for in their measurement. They say they do, this tank is 0.06 to 0.07, which might be a little higher than they'd expect, but you're still OK as long as you know how to wick.

The real question is how the heck do you vape like that?

Very satisfactorily

Enough to get nic and vapor. I can produce enough of a 'cloud' to satisfy the need to see one. I can even stealth vape when needed. I just really only need to address the hand to mouth and something to do with my hands while just sitting around.

If busy, I can go hours without vaping.

 

[cigatron]

Well you need to consider that the moment that the liquid is evaporated (which is near instantaneous) it is being replaced by cooler liquid, and the airflow is also cooling things a lot.

From what I understand you saying, the gray area is on the surface of the coil, how long does the liquid stay in this surface before it's evaporated and is that sufficient to break the molecules down.

Thing is, from a scientific view, once the coil is hot enough, the liquid doesn't really make contact with it, in simple terms, it creates a "floating area" (for lack of better term) where the liquid is absorbing the heat and evaporating at the same rate that it's being pulled away by the airflow. It's basically a "pressure" created by the heat and conversion of the liquid to it's aerosol state. Think of it as a very hot plate where you drop water on it.. the drops will actually not be touching the hot place but are suspended by the steam being produce by the heat radiating. That steam is at 100C and is being released and not going to get hotter unless you'd trap it and expose it to more heat.

So it's more complex than just liquid touching the hot coil... it's heat dissipation by evaporation but for it to work, you still need airflow.

And that's why if you aren't taking a pull and creating that airflow, TC kicks in near instantly. The liquid by itself isn't enough to absorb all the heat

The "danger" in my opinion is more about when you end up with the crap (sweeteners and such) that does not evaporate and end up attaching itself to the coil, and why I mentioned in an earlier posts that having a clean coil would be very important.

But run a coil under cold running water, TC will never trigger because the heat is being absorbed faster than the power to the coil is applied. Should you go with a massive amount of power to a small coil, until you reach a plasma phase type heat, the running water will continue to suck in the heat preventing the coil to even go red.

But in the meanwhile, at a certain level, done right, that coil can create a "cushion" of steam around it and the water no longer touches the metal directly... BUT the water's in close proximity will never go beyond it's boiling temperature, and this turns into the same scenario, where the evaporated water isn't staying there, it's airborne, and instantly replaced by cooler water that's not yet heated enough to be steam, and so on...

Should you obtain that goal and manage to glow a coil while running it under cold water, you're at levels of power that I wouldn't touch without a safety wall between me and that coil, as at that point, you're going into super-heating territory.

Great post. You are obviously more schooled in physics than I am and I got to learn something new today.

Yes, the "grey zone" as you put it is where my concern is. If such a zone exists where coil heat at the wire surface can exceed the boiling point of the liquid could it be caused by the diminishing supply of juice during a pull? Assuming yes, would the temp delta between the coil surface and the liquid narrow eventually bring the liquid well above it's boiling point?

 

[Flavored]

Very satisfactorily

Enough to get nic and vapor. I can produce enough of a 'cloud' to satisfy the need to see one. I can even stealth vape when needed. I just really only need to address the hand to mouth and something to do with my hands while just sitting around.

If busy, I can go hours without vaping.

Did you even light the cigs back in the day?



(Sorry, I couldn't resist one last poke. To each his/her own, very happy you're satisfied with your vape. When it comes right down to it, you'll probably outlive us all)

 

[tj99959]

By Doctor F dated Jan 2015:


Has anyone seen anything from him on this since then?

Sure, I see posts from him on FB all the time.
His latest was about child attraction labeling. He's still working on the temp project I believe.

add: I believe this was the study you eluded to however.
E-cigarettes generate high levels of aldehydes only in “dry puff” conditions (irrespective of the power levels)

and then there's this
How much do flavors contribute to aldehyde emissions from e-cigarettes?

 

[mikepetro]

As many have brought up, it would be really nice to know the exact eliq temp at the coil during a vape.

I get the whole boiling point to aerosol theory, and I get that you can only raise the boiling point under pressure. So I can see where it is possible the liquid is not equal to coil temp, maybe???

But, I also know from first hand experience that I can vary the temp of unflavored nic 20 degrees and get a very different taste. Vary it 20 more and different yet again. So something is changing, and it isnt the wick getting dry as I physically confirmed that I still had a sloppy wet wick.

I also know I can get funky off taste, short of devil-.... but still bad, from a hot leg. That aside, my vary by 20 degrees taste test varies results consistently. If the liquid is not increasing in temp as the coil temp goes up then what is it, simply aerosol volume?

 

[sofarsogood]

Interesting reading:
Appears to objective.



http://ajplung.physiology.org/content/309/12/L1398

I read through most of it. First make it so long and so tedious that nobody will read every word. Circle and circle and never land on anything. The author didn't do anything but make generalizations about other people's work. The really insufferable part is he makes claims that show naive lack of knowledge about vaping. He makes the usual 'most addictive' claim about nicotine without bothering to have a reference. The title of the paper is misleading. He ends where he starts, the dangers of e liquid is unknown. He had no intention adding to the knowledge. The purpose of the paper was to create confusion and finally, pretend that all the preceding gobbledegook some how justifies requiring eliquid to be treated the same as pharmaceuticals--because the companies can afford it, he adds in haste. Propaganda.

 

[kates]

By Doctor F dated Jan 2015:


Has anyone seen anything from him on this since then?

Think this links to it E-cigarettes generate high levels of aldehydes only in “dry puff” conditions (irrespective of the power levels)
(if it works).

 

[beckdg]

I see a bumper sticker

Or a trucking company slogan.

Plastered big as day across the side of a 53' trailer...

Becks logistics, llc
Temperature matters, keep your wicks wet.
And keep it shiny side up.



Tapatyped

 

[Mowgli]

I've been pushing the envelope since I started vaping.
I always wanted a better vape until about a year ago.
Short hot-ish semi-slipstream hits @ 69-75W on an Aromamizer is my happy place.
Heat brings out the flavor, thick vapor, cool enough with <2 second draw.
I'm sensitive to PG and tolerate about 10% so Max VG with ~3-5% saline.

Hot vapor + High VG + water + all day, every day (15ml-25ml) = perfect storm.

I'm scheduled for my yearly visit at the cardiologist next week.
Aldahydes "causing" high BP is a concern for cardiology so I've requested that he order a blood test including testing my aldehyde levels, specifically formaldehyde & acetaldehyde.
Is there a doctor in the house? Anyone know for sure if aldehydes stay detectable in blood after the source is removed or do they store in muscle/fat (undetectable in blood)?

I've already dropped from 70W to 45W-55W. It's tolerable but barely satisfying.
I'm comparing same juice/tank in wattage vs TC to compare just how "too-hot" I like.

I'd really like to know if aldehydes "hide" in storage or if a blood test indicates an accurate "total body level".
It might be better to vape 70W until after the test.

 

[englishmick]

Well you need to consider that the moment that the liquid is evaporated (which is near instantaneous) it is being replaced by cooler liquid, and the airflow is also cooling things a lot.

From what I understand you saying, the gray area is on the surface of the coil, how long does the liquid stay in this surface before it's evaporated and is that sufficient to break the molecules down.

Thing is, from a scientific view, once the coil is hot enough, the liquid doesn't really make contact with it, in simple terms, it creates a "floating area" (for lack of better term) where the liquid is absorbing the heat and evaporating at the same rate that it's being pulled away by the airflow. It's basically a "pressure" created by the heat and conversion of the liquid to it's aerosol state. Think of it as a very hot plate where you drop water on it.. the drops will actually not be touching the hot place but are suspended by the steam being produce by the heat radiating. That steam is at 100C and is being released and not going to get hotter unless you'd trap it and expose it to more heat.

So it's more complex than just liquid touching the hot coil... it's heat dissipation by evaporation but for it to work, you still need airflow.

And that's why if you aren't taking a pull and creating that airflow, TC kicks in near instantly. The liquid by itself isn't enough to absorb all the heat

The "danger" in my opinion is more about when you end up with the crap (sweeteners and such) that does not evaporate and end up attaching itself to the coil, and why I mentioned in an earlier posts that having a clean coil would be very important.

But run a coil under cold running water, TC will never trigger because the heat is being absorbed faster than the power to the coil is applied. Should you go with a massive amount of power to a small coil, until you reach a plasma phase type heat, the running water will continue to suck in the heat preventing the coil to even go red.

But in the meanwhile, at a certain level, done right, that coil can create a "cushion" of steam around it and the water no longer touches the metal directly... BUT the water's in close proximity will never go beyond it's boiling temperature, and this turns into the same scenario, where the evaporated water isn't staying there, it's airborne, and instantly replaced by cooler water that's not yet heated enough to be steam, and so on...

Should you obtain that goal and manage to glow a coil while running it under cold water, you're at levels of power that I wouldn't touch without a safety wall between me and that coil, as at that point, you're going into super-heating territory.

Interesting stuff. When I was studying Physics at college I did a short course called Introduction to Boundary Layer Considerations or some such. I found it fascinating at the time. That was just before I dropped out of college so my knowledge level is pretty low. One of the examples they used was the behavior of air at the surface of airplane wings. Most analysis of physical systems ignores boundary layer behavior and in most cases it doesn’t matter very much, but at small scales or extreme situations it comes into play more. I have a feeling that it could be a significant factor in what goes on around vaping coils as you were speculating above.

Since that would be really hard to investigate directly it seems like the way forward is to study what comes out of the drip tip rather than how the process actually operates at some microscopic level.