New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers
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I think there are a LOT more that vape like you and me than some folks are aware of.Very satisfactorily
Enough to get nic and vapor. I can produce enough of a 'cloud' to satisfy the need to see one. I can even stealth vape when needed. I just really only need to address the hand to mouth and something to do with my hands while just sitting around.
If busy, I can go hours without vaping.
Everybody here knows if you vape the same wick long enough in power mode you eventually get a dry puff. It tastes bad because our body thinks there's bad stuff in it. Gag reflex triggered, we stop vaping until it's fixed. So the question is, worthy of research, does the bad stuff start appearing in concerning quantities before the dry puff, meaning, before it can be detected by taste. A vaper might have his setup sampled in the lab when new then he comes back every few days for another test until he finally gets a dry puff. Assuming the setup was clean at the start when does the decline of the wicking start producing significant amounts of bad stuff, if ever.
Not really, but he did mention that 10% water in VG does reduce boiling point to about 140 degrees (Celsius) He did not mention anything else about the effects on vapourization.
I am suggesting that by lowering the boiling point it will greatly reduce any production of the three evil chemicals. Especially since vapourization will occur at a much lower temperature than the 200 degrees at which this phenomena just starts to be observed.
Be Safe, just use 10% - 20% water in a VG solution, very simple solution until more data becomes available.
I've always hated the taste of combustible cigarettes and I've tried them numerous times but never became a smoker.
I never got an unpleasant taste from vaping even the first times I tried it apart from a dry hit so I believe his hypothesis fails.
My thoughts exactly. All of the studies we have so far that actually do measure what comes out of the drip tip show that the levels are low to non-existent until you get a dry puff, even for "high" wattage vaping. So, we need a study, using a tc mod, measuring levels at different temperatures in as close to real world usage as possible.
The cynic in me says not to expect this anytime soon, especially not from evolv, unless the results actually do show that the compounds start forming with tc above 450F.
I'd almost equate it to similar to sublimation (maybe not the best word but I can't think the correct one to use here) where the coil warms up very fast and the liquid goes from it's liquid and "cool" state to aerosol state near instantly, and basically "shoots out" as fast and far away from the coil in a explosive fashion. Basically, the liquid does very little actual boiling, it just gets heated hard enough to be turned to an aerosol.
Anyone that triggers their coil during priming can see the pops and "vapour" shooting out and up, in a much faster rate that steam comes off when boiling water.
And even at the rate of the "prime" heating phase, the liquid gets to it's aerosol point so fast that it simply shoots out, carried by the energy from the heat.
Actually here's something to chew on.
Have you notice that you can actually see droplets in the vape's "smoke"...
Basically the liquid is pounded by the heat in extremely small droplets, the heat itself becomes a carrier that carries them off, so the liquid doesn't assume a full gaseous state, and ends up absorbing water molecule (the humidity in the environment) to the point that you can see these droplets.
To test this, blow into your vape and the vapour that comes out will float upwards while the vape that was inhaled with be heavier and be dropping down.. this is due to having absorbed some water/moisture from your lungs/throat.
People tend to forget that vaping isn't inhaling a gas (gaseous form of liquid) but that it's actually an aerosol.. basically a fine mist, which we use heat to disburse. In time, someone could create a cool aerosol device with a heating unit to warm the mist on exiting and at that point, there wouldn't be any issues about heat transforming the liquid's molecule to recompose bad molecules.
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Actually, even if my theory about when the compounds are formed is right, tc would still be helpful from a safety standpoint.
Let's say that under normal vaping conditions that the compounds don't actually form until you get a dry puff, where the temperature spikes high above normal operating temperature. TC could still help prevent that from happening. In addition to the benefits of having a more consistent vape.
I like the idea of using a TC mod to try and reproduce the studies of the "reactor" test. A lot more can be known from real world tests. I would personally say use a 2.5 tootle coil a 2.0 tootle coil and work down the list and increase to .25 sub-ohm coil and then substitute these coils kanthal for ss... so what 6 different coils with degrees stepping up from 400 to 550? every 20 degrees until significant change occurs then maybe every 5-10 degrees? Would be much easier to apply the information to vaping than the current tests allow for.
Take 15 or 20 vapers with a variety of setups that they are actually using. The brand new build is tested then they show up every day or two and have their setups sampled for bad stuff. Either it starts appearing before the dry puff or it doesn't. If none of the setups produce untastable bad stuff that would be good evidence that taste is strong protection. If any of them produce concerning quantities that can't be tasted we know it can happen so other guidelines or limitations need to be established to avoid a hazard we can't taste. Why hasn't this been done already? If it has who did it and what were the results?
From - ATSDR - Medical Management Guidelines (MMGs): Formaldehyde
Laboratory Tests
Routine laboratory studies for all exposed patients include CBC, glucose, and electrolyte determinations. Additional studies for patients exposed to formaldehyde include urinalysis (protein, casts, and red blood cells may be present), methanol level, osmolal gap, and ABG measurements (to monitor acidosis in severe toxicity). Chest radiography and pulse oximetry may be helpful in cases of inhalation exposure. Plasma formaldehyde levels are not useful.
Bummer. I'll ask what tests my cardiologist (my PCP is a POS) recommends for chronic (or occupational) aldehyde exposure and point him to that section of that paper if he doesn't know.
It's all theory until the rubber hits the road.
Laboratory Tests
Routine laboratory studies for all exposed patients include CBC, glucose, and electrolyte determinations. Additional studies for patients exposed to formaldehyde include urinalysis (protein, casts, and red blood cells may be present), methanol level, osmolal gap, and ABG measurements (to monitor acidosis in severe toxicity). Chest radiography and pulse oximetry may be helpful in cases of inhalation exposure. Plasma formaldehyde levels are not useful.
Bummer. I'll ask what tests my cardiologist (my PCP is a POS) recommends for chronic (or occupational) aldehyde exposure and point him to that section of that paper if he doesn't know.
It's all theory until the rubber hits the road.
but it's not only dry hits! years ago we dissected carto after carto, hundreds of them:
pretty much all of those were opened after normal use and no ill taste was detected beforehand! our motto 'keep them wet' proved to be no defense
and there were plenty of us with the same experience and we'd all be considered tootle puffers nowadays but there wasn't much else available Burning Cartomisers? Dangerous?-510/Kr808/4081...etc filler type cartos
and that is the reason i firmly believe mike is right when he states that relying on our taste buds will keep us out of the danger zone!
if there is no tc available keep the wattage as low as you can and do not chain-vape with one device!
but it's not only dry hits! years ago we dissected carto after carto, hundreds of them:
pretty much all of those were opened after normal use and no ill taste was detected beforehand! our motto 'keep them wet' proved to be no defense
Burning Cartomisers? Dangerous?-510/Kr808/4081...etc filler type cartos
and that is the reason i firmly believe mike is right when he states that relying on our taste buds will keep us out of the danger zone!
if there is no tc available keep the wattage as low as you can and do not chain-vape with one device!
yup.. those were bad, but the previous models where worse but we didn't even consider it then.
But that's why I've stated it at least twice in this thread.. having a clean coil is very important...I always check mine every few days, and almost have to pull my wife's mods out of her hands to rebuild them...
Okay, is there data that cartos in that state were emitting aldehydes? Are they "burnt" or is that an accumulation of unvaporized solids? I never used cartos, aside from my first few disposables, so I don't really know what they tasted like.but it's not only dry hits! years ago we dissected carto after carto, hundreds of them:
pretty much all of those were opened after normal use and no ill taste was detected beforehand! our motto 'keep them wet' proved to be no defense
Burning Cartomisers? Dangerous?-510/Kr808/4081...etc filler type cartos
and that is the reason i firmly believe mike is right when he states that relying on our taste buds will keep us out of the danger zone!
if there is no tc available keep the wattage as low as you can and do not chain-vape with one device!
If your Premise is correct, then a Reliable TC would achieve just that.
So I guess the Question gets back to are these Compounds only formed in a Dry Hit condition? And if they are Not, what is the Amounts being produced and under what Conditions?
You would need a significant exposure to formaldehyde, like dunking your head in a vat of formalin (OK, not that bad, but a lot) before you would see any changes in the routine tests you list. The methanol level is included only because formaldehyde is usually kept in a liquid mix with methanol, which is toxic in and of itself. No methanol is produced in the course of making formaldehyde out of vape juice (I hope)
but it's not only dry hits! years ago we dissected carto after carto, hundreds of them:
pretty much all of those were opened after normal use and no ill taste was detected beforehand! our motto 'keep them wet' proved to be no defense
Burning Cartomisers? Dangerous?-510/Kr808/4081...etc filler type cartos
and that is the reason i firmly believe mike is right when he states that relying on our taste buds will keep us out of the danger zone!
if there is no tc available keep the wattage as low as you can and do not chain-vape with one device!
That is really nasty. This is why 3rd gen products are the way to go. And that tasted OK? Blech
or just "what is the Amounts being produced and under what Conditions?"
Another angle would be, what exactly is occurring in a "dry puff" condition?
Remember in that SS chamber testing setup and the Subtank variable wattage thing, there were no "dry hits" involved to get those results. That dry hit stuff applied to the older CE4 testing. Not to say a dry hit won't have bad stuff in it, but you do not have to get a dry hit to have measurable (although low) aldehyde levels produced.
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