New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers

[KenD]

I've used Steam engine to get my desired heat flux value for my builds for the last couple of years.... It gives me comparable temperatures across the different wires that I use, what I don't know is what a heat flux value of say 200 equates to in terms of temperature?

It doesn't equate to any particular temperature. Airflow, chamber style, length of draw, puff style, etc etc all play a role and the variables are far too many for any kind of calculation to give you a reliable answer.

Sent from my K6000 Pro using Tapatalk

 

[KenD]

My Pico (with FW 1.03) has M1 M2 M3 SS Ti, and Ni settings. On M1 it was varying +/- 20 degrees or more and jumping into overtemp and back. That didn't interrupt the vape. I just noticed it. Set on SS it doesn't jump into overtemp. I have temp set on 200C and it stays 180 +/- 5 to 10 degrees and doesn't go into overtemp. The vape has slight warmth, good vapor, and better temp control than M1.

To adjust the tcr values: turn off the mod with five clicks of the fire button, hold the fire and plus button until the m-settings are displayed. You can now circle through (m1, m2, m3, preheat power, preheat time - on firmware 1.03) by pressing the fire button. To adjust a value simply use the + or - buttons.

Sent from my K6000 Pro using Tapatalk

 

[Bob Chill]

I've haven't been here much over the last 6 months or so. Ever since I completed my multi-decade stash I've gone into autopilot.

Personally, I simply don't like TC. My vape life is too damn simple as it is. I run 1.2ohm @ 10.5 watts on well wicked Kayfun style tanks and have always done short 3-4 second pulls. If that's going to kill me then I guess it's going to kill me. At least I'll be able to breath well until I die.

 

[DaveP]

To adjust the tcr values: turn off the mod with five clicks of the fire button, hold the fire and plus button until the m-settings are displayed. You can now circle through (m1, m2, m3, preheat power, preheat time - on firmware 1.03) by pressing the fire button. To adjust a value simply use the + or - buttons.

Sent from my K6000 Pro using Tapatalk

I have the Pico instructions somewhere. Thanks for the info! Right now it's working smoothly set at 200 degrees and 10 watts. It dances around 180 and doesn't go into overtemp on the SS setting. In temp mode it's producing about the same vape as it di on 10 watts in wattage mode. I think I may be getting a little longer battery life.

 

[Eskie]

Forgive my complete and utter sarcasm here, but "News flash! Maker of temperature control chips does research and declares temperature control is the safest method for vaping, the rest will kill you dead!" rofl.. it just isn't something I'm planning on taking any stock in.. big tobacco did all manner of research saying how safe smoking was too.. lol.. Evolv just wants to sell their stuff, imho, and I don't (and will never) put any stock in research beneficial to the manufacturer who did the "study".

Here is what I know for a FACT: after smoking for 32 years I couldn't breath, and getting to the mailbox was trying for my lungs, my blood pressure was up and smoking was slowing/preventing proper blood flow to the lowest parts of my spine, and it was making my disease (CRPS type 2) even more painful than it should be. Check that with, after quitting smoking and taking up vaping, within one month of a CE4 and little bitty ego battery I could breath again, later, I found a vaping experience more to my liking, after trying many things. My pain level decreased, my ability to breathe continued to improve, my blood pressure dropped and I am healthier in general. For me, nothing else matters. For MOST vapers, nothing else matters. We were dead anyway.

Research is only important for people who never smoked, who aren't under a complete and total death sentence from big tobacco.. and for them, ONLY independent and unbiased research matters. Evolv taking a page from BT's playbook doesn't endear me to their company, to be honest. It makes me trust them less.

Peace.

There was another presenter at that meeting who presented evidence about vaping and people, especially those with lung diseases exacerbated by smoking. I think this one slide is worth seeing (and is representative of the rest of her presentation, not "cherry picked", at least I don't think it is). This was work from Glasser of the Smoking Initiative, one of those "tobacco is evil" foundations.

There was significant improvement among those with COPD who switched to vaping. There was also this,

Pretty significant decrease in exposure to nasties among vapers too.

I have no doubts about vaping being advantageous for ex-smokers. I also agree with your statement that many of the toxicity studies are of greater value for non-smokers picking up vaping. They're the ones being exposed to stuff, albeit at lower levels than smokers, that represent increased risks rather then the decrease for smokers. I believe quite a few people make it a point to bring it up when non-smokers pop up on this forum. As for Evolv's actions in this meeting, I have said repeatedly in this thread it was a very bad judgement call to jump on this prematurely without real data to support any preference for TC over power vaping by the average vaper.

 

[mikepetro]

I think I have figured out how to measure juice temp in an atty with a closed chamber and airdraw and everything. The Merlin RTA atty is built with such a spacious deck that I think I can sneak a tiny thermocouple up through the airhole and attach it to the coil, as well as another test with the probe in the middle of a Scottish roll wick. Anyway, I have ordered a couple of Merlins off of FT, and will try it. I already have the thermocouples.

 

[Rossum]

Anyway, I have ordered a couple of Merlins off of FT

So you'll be conducting these experiments sometime next year?

 

[Lessifer]

There was another presenter at that meeting who presented evidence about vaping and people, especially those with lung diseases exacerbated by smoking. I think this one slide is worth seeing (and is representative of the rest of her presentation, not "cherry picked", at least I don't think it is). This was work from Glasser of the Smoking Initiative, one of those "tobacco is evil" foundations.
View attachment 641451



There was significant improvement among those with COPD who switched to vaping. There was also this,
View attachment 641449

Pretty significant decrease in exposure to nasties among vapers too.

I have no doubts about vaping being advantageous for ex-smokers. I also agree with your statement that many of the toxicity studies are of greater value for non-smokers picking up vaping. They're the ones being exposed to stuff, albeit at lower levels than smokers, that represent increased risks rather then the decrease for smokers. I believe quite a few people make it a point to bring it up when non-smokers pop up on this forum. As for Evolv's actions in this meeting, I have said repeatedly in this thread it was a very bad judgement call to jump on this prematurely without real data to support any preference for TC over power vaping by the average vaper.

Yeah, vaping being safer than smoking doesn't seem to be a question in most people's minds, not even public health any more, but don't expect them to go shouting that from the rooftops.

As for the temp stuff, Wang et al cite two references for the basis of the idea that ecig temps get high enough for this whole thing to be meaningful.

1. 7.Chen W, Wang P, Fowles J, Matsuo T, Shusterman D, Hodgson AT, et al. Exposure assessment to e-cigarettes, part 1: literature review on carbonyl compounds generation from e-cigarettes and affecting factors. In Proceedings of Healthy Buildings, Boulder, 2013, USA.
2. 8.Schripp T, Markewitz D, Uhde E, Salthammer T. Does e-cigarette consumption cause passive vaping? Indoor Air; 2013; 23: 25–31. doi: 10.1111/j.1600-0668.2012.00792.x. pmid:22672560

The first one seems to be a presentation at a conference and I can't find the text of it anywhere. The second is behind a paywall of course.

The reference in the study is " In fact, the achievable temperature inside e-devices ranges up to 350°C [7, 8], sufficiently high to decompose PG or GL."

One of those references is to themselves...

 

[Lessifer]

I think I have figured out how to measure juice temp in an atty with a closed chamber and airdraw and everything. The Merlin RTA atty is built with such a spacious deck that I think I can sneak a tiny thermocouple up through the airhole and attach it to the coil, as well as another test with the probe in the middle of a Scottish roll wick. Anyway, I have ordered a couple of Merlins off of FT, and will try it. I already have the thermocouples.



View attachment 641453

View attachment 641457

How will you be sure that you're reading liquid temperature and not radiating coil temp? The liquid we're concerned with would be the liquid in contact with the coil.

I'm not sure this can be a home brewed experiment, or even if it could be accurately measured in a lab. Easier(not for you, obviously) to detect the presence of the carbonyls at various coil temps, since we supposedly have a curve of levels at various temperatures.

 

[zoiDman]

How will you be sure that you're reading liquid temperature and not radiating coil temp? The liquid we're concerned with would be the liquid in contact with the coil.

...

At the Boundary of the Coil/Wick, how much Temperature Differential do you think there may be between the Coil and the e-Liquid that comes in Contact with the Coil?

 

[mikepetro]

How will you be sure that you're reading liquid temperature and not radiating coil temp? The liquid we're concerned with would be the liquid in contact with the coil.

I'm not sure this can be a home brewed experiment, or even if it could be accurately measured in a lab. Easier(not for you, obviously) to detect the presence of the carbonyls at various coil temps, since we supposedly have a curve of levels at various temperatures.

All I will be able to measure is coil temp, and temp in the middle of the wick. Hey, its more than we have now. And if nothing else will validate coil temps versus the reading on the DNA.

The juice in contact with the coil will probably get hotter than in the middle of the wick. I dont know yet, but maybe I can get a wick surface temp in between 2 coils loops. If nothing else it will interesting to see that wick temp.

As for nasties in the mix, that is way beyond any test I can perform.

 

[zoiDman]

All I will be able to measure is coil temp, and temp in the middle of the wick. Hey, its more than we have now. And if nothing else will validate coil temps versus the reading on the DNA.

The juice in contact with the coil will probably get hotter than in the middle of the wick. I dont know yet, but maybe I can get a wick surface temp in between 2 coils loops. If nothing else it will interesting to see that wick temp.

As for nasties in the mix, that is way beyond any test I can perform.

You might also find that the Portion of the Coil that is Opposite of the Airflow has a Higher Temp than that Directly in the Airflow path.

ie: Top of Coil is Hotter in a Bottom Airflow Atomizer.

 

[Katdarling]

It's Funny to see how things have Shifted.

I remember when it was Hard to Find 12mg/ml. Because everything was Higher.

LOL

Ahh, yes, the good ol' daze. That's way back when eliquid vendors were catering to the smoker (vaper to be) rather than the vaper.

Probably a bit late and premature but low watts, mtl, hi nic and less ml's per day is what I have always done and wouldn't bother me if it made a come back. most of the newer juices being made are too low in nic. I should be making my own juice but have a hard time finding selections these days with anything above 18mg.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

You're a TPuffer, vapdivrr. I don't know if it'll make a (huge) come back, but I do know for me it's never left.

 

[zoiDman]

Ahh, yes, the good ol' daze. That's way back when eliquid vendors were catering to the smoker (vaper to be) rather than the vaper.

...

Yeah... When I switched, If the Highest I could get was 12mg/ml it would Never have worked.

I needed 28mg/ml as my D2D with a Cart or two of 36mg/ml to get me thru the Bad Times. But that was with a RN801 & DSE-109.

Doing those mg's today, with the Hardware I use now, would be a 1-Way Ticket to Nic Sick Central.

 

[Lessifer]

At the Boundary of the Coil/Wick, how much Temperature Differential do you think there may be between the Coil and the e-Liquid that comes in Contact with the Coil?

Isn't that the main question some of us have been asking? From what I can find, the thermodynamic behavior of liquids that reach their boiling point is that they turn to gas and start cooling, they only get heated beyond their boiling point if the air pressure is greater than normal. So, the question is, if the bp of your liquid is 180C and your coil is 210C, do you at some point get 210C liquid, or do you just get 180C liquid at a faster rate? A more accurate measure of coil temperature is not going to answer that question.

 

[zoiDman]

... A more accurate measure of coil temperature is not going to answer that question.

I believe that the More Physical Information one has can Only Help one understand a Problem.

Talking about things is Great. But at some point, shouldn't there be some Physical Measurements to align with the Talk?

 

[Lessifer]

I believe that the More Physical Information one has can Only Help one understand a Problem.

Talking about things is Great. But at some point, shouldn't there be some Physical Measurements to align with the Talk?

Of course, more information is always good, but even if we stipulate that a dna board is 100% accurate and what it tells us is a 500F coil really is a 500F coil, that still doesn't answer the question of whether or not the liquid itself is being superheated beyond its boiling point.

 

[pfaber11]

Well has Dr farsalinos commented yet he did a study on this ages ago and found that the temperature we vape at was safe so what has changed.

 

[mikepetro]

Of course, more information is always good, but even if we stipulate that a dna board is 100% accurate and what it tells us is a 500F coil really is a 500F coil, that still doesn't answer the question of whether or not the liquid itself is being superheated beyond its boiling point.

To be honest, all I can do is measure what I can, and make judgement calls from there. If I see the wick temp is close to the coil temp it will be good enough "for me" to trust my DNA settings, and to keep my temps low "just in case".

 

[pfaber11]

How comes this has not attracted the media.