New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers

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Eskie

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In a tc mod, that 500 is the calculated temperature of the wire, right? When you set it to 500 are you actually hitting 500 or are the other limits, i.e. power available, keeping you below that. If you are hitting 500 at the coil, do we know that the liquid itself is reaching 500, or does it start to aerosolize before reaching that temperature? This would be why it would have been great to get measurements from the vapor produced by a coil in tc, and not a steel tube.

You are quite correct. TC is merely a calculation based upon resistance change and the known TCR of the metal. We do not directly measure the temp of the coil. About the only way I can imagine doing that would be to attach a teeny tiny thermocouple to the wire. Or the wick. Or the chamber. Or 3 teeny tiny thermocouples to all of them for monitoring. Not very practical, and not known which one of those thermocouples will provide the data required to determine the probability if producing nasty stuff. But if you vape on a silica wick in a SS chamber like that performed in the Wang PLOS paper, I guess you could use a direct measurement as they did to extrapolate the risk at a given temperature.


Hey, look at my OP, all I said was "Temperature Control is important". And that vaping below 470F is "safer".

If you think you do it by taste, or wire calculation, or whatever, more power to you. I know that I can now tell if a vape is more than 440-450 by taste, but that is only because I have been using a 440F reference for a couple years.

I believe there is something to these studies. Are they dead nuts on the money, probably not. At least they are trying to apply science to it objectively which is more than I can say for a lot of past studies.

And yes, I respect the laws of science far more than I do any 3-letter acronym.

I think concluding that higher temperatures are more likely to result in breakdown products of possible toxicity. And the Wang study (or Evolv study because they're the ones who dragged that in to begin with) appears to demonstrate that, under the laboratory conditions as spelled out in the material and methods, aldehyde production rises considerably about 470F, and primarily is derived from the glycerin/gylcerol stuff, and little from the PG (let's not go anywhere near flavorings as that's a whole separate 50 page thread). So, how does that correlate to real world experience?

The real world experience is shown in this other slide (posted before) by separate investigators measuring aldehyde production with actual tanks and coils we vape on.
Subtank toxin performance.JPG


Walking through this again, measurements of actual levels of formaldehyde and aectaldehyde with a Subtank coil (maybe Kanthal maybe SS they don't say) produces very small amounts with wattage (not temp control) settings up to 26W. The absolute amounts measured are lower than those reported by Wang/Evolv but it wasn't being done by temp so there's that issue. In addition, it appears from that slide that the same holds up for a Nauti, a Cubis, and a KF clone.

So in a real world setting, with hardware in actual use in the wild and not a SS chamber with a glass wool/silica wick, there isn't anywhere near the levels we would be overly concerned about. What is a bit weird is comparing the emissions above with the emissions reported in the Evolv presentation.
Evolv curve.JPG


Now, the scales are different, and Evolv seems to be reporting Acetaldehyde (not formaldehyde too, and not sure why not) in amounts per 25 puffs. They then attempt to compare (at least it's the way I see it) the 25 puff exposure to 1 cigarette. It appears when correct to per puff, at the 480F mark which crosses the red cigarette line, it would be 1000 µg/25=500 µg per puff. Those other guys above who did the test with actual vape gear is lower by several orders of magnitude of about 0.5 µg/puff at 25W (total aldehyde 0.34+0.16=0.5 µg).

So the interpretation I take away from that back of the envelope statistical analysis is that there remains considerable variation in the measurement of bad stuff with vaping which will hopefully be clarified with further research. Whether you decide to run with the Evolv curve created out of Wang's published study or the info from Kistler's presentation about actual tests done with a Subtank, it's apparent that running a hot coil is probably a bad idea for your juice (come on, formaldehyde just does not taste good) and maybe your health.
 

zoiDman

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You could do some Comparisons.

When I 1st got a TC Mod that seemed to work Reliably, I put a SS build in it and then set the Temp Limit to about 420F. Then set the Wattage to what I normally Vape in VW mode.

The Temperature Protection never Kicked in. Had to Lower the Temperature to around 390F to see anything happening. And that was more at the End of a Long Hit.

So that told me that Unless I run the Wick Dry, I would probably not Exceed 400F or so.

Wasn't Fool-Proof by any means. But it gave me an Ballpark Idea of what Temperatures I was achieving in VW for that type of Build/Airflow/Length of Hit/etc.

ETA:

Eskie makes a Very Good Point about Extrapolated vs. Actual Temperature.

The Above Compression was only as valid as the Mod's TC ability to Calculate a Temperature based on Resistance Change.
 
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mikepetro

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One big disconnect between Kistler's presentation and Wang's data is that Kistler was basing it off wattage, where Wang was basing it on Temp. Two different animals that dont really correlate.

Temp takes all the combined variables of volts, watts, ohms, into consideration. Kistler's wattage graph doesnt, ie what happens with a different atty at that same wattage. Whereas temp is temp is temp regardless of how you might change the atty.
 

NU_FTW

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One big disconnect between Kistler's presentation and Wang's data is that Kistler was basing it off wattage, where Wang was basing it on Temp. Two different animals that dont really correlate.

Temp takes all the combined variables of volts, watts, ohms, into consideration. Kistler's wattage graph doesnt, ie what happens with a different atty at that same wattage. Wehereas temp is temp is temp.
EXACTLY! :D It is nice to know that where I enjoy to vape (400F) is also within safe limits of VG and PG especially since i have very little PG in my juice. Now had i not been vaping on TC i would likely have bought some of the wire i am currently using and then realized that in wattage mode i was in "somewhat" safe i can cay with certainty that while using wattage there was definite spikes in temp well above 420+ degrees as now i have a smooth start to finish where as before it started essentially and finished essentially the same but in wattage mode i always tasted a slight spike in temp increase (tasted/felt)
 

mikepetro

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Now, the scales are different, and Evolv seems to be reporting Acetaldehyde (not formaldehyde too, and not sure why not) in amounts per 25 puffs. They then attempt to compare (at least it's the way I see it) the 25 puff exposure to 1 cigarette. It appears when correct to per puff, at the 480F mark which crosses the red cigarette line, it would be 1000 µg/25=500 µg per puff. Those other guys above who did the test with actual vape gear is lower by several orders of magnitude of about 0.5 µg/puff at 25W (total aldehyde 0.34+0.16=0.5 µg).

  • 1000 µg/25=40 µg per puff not 500
  • 0.5 µg/puff at 25W vs 40 µg per puff at 480F cant be compared.
  • You cant compare a study based on watts with a study based on temp, it is apples and oranges. I.e. that 0.5 µg/puff at 25W might have have been at 450F for all we know.
 

Eskie

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One big disconnect between Kistler's presentation and Wang's data is that Kistler was basing it off wattage, where Wang was basing it on Temp. Two different animals that dont really correlate.

Temp takes all the combined variables of volts, watts, ohms, into consideration. Kistler's wattage graph doesnt, ie what happens with a different atty at that same wattage. Whereas temp is temp is temp regardless of how you might change the atty.

And I will respectfully disagree. You can't get temperature without supplying watts. The question really is how long can you take a draw in wattage mode before exceeding the temperatures at which aldehyde production begins to occur. Kistler's data suggests aldehyde production does not occur to any appreciable extent (certainly not as much as Evolv's graph) at a given wattage for the length of whatever the draw was on that Subtank.
 

mikepetro

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And I will respectfully disagree. You can't get temperature without supplying watts. The question really is how long can you take a draw in wattage mode before exceeding the temperatures at which aldehyde production begins to occur. Kistler's data suggests aldehyde production does not occur to any appreciable extent (certainly not as much as Evolv's graph) at a given wattage for the length of whatever the draw was on that Subtank.
  • Temperature is the variable where the bad stuff happens. (breakpoint of 480ish)
  • Wattage is a component of temp, but wattage alone wont make bad stuff happen until the TEMP breakpoint is exceeded.
  • Wattag is not the breakpoint
  • If the breakpoint is temp, then temp is the variable that matters
 

mikepetro

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So what does this mean for the many vapers now brandishing Smok TFV8s, Blazer 200s, Arctic V12s and other 12 coil tanks that are regularly vaped above 100 watts?


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No clue, depends on the temp they are running.
 
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mikepetro

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zoiDman

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30 second inter puff interval? They are firing for 30 seconds to get the temperature up above 480 degrees?

Who fires their device for over 30 seconds? Of course it's going to get hot and in many cases will start to dry burn a coil.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Are they Firing for 30 Seconds?

Or are the waiting 30 Seconds between Firing?
 

sonicbomb

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I need a hot vape to be satisfied. I tried TC and found that less than 470-500 degrees anemic and dissatisfying, so assuming the data is valid I'm well within the danger zone whether I use TC or not.
This study does not overly concern me and I'll tell you why. If I am inhaling some formaldehyde and acetaldehyde, that’s 3998 less harmful compounds than I would smoking a cigarette which to me is officially a win.

Common sense dictates that inhaling anything other than fresh mountain air has to have some health risks. I've been vaping for seven years and I have never laboured under the assumption that there were no risks associated with vaping. The important factor is these health risks in comparison with smoking. If vaping was found to be equally harmful as smoking, I would still do it. Why, because I like it far more than I ever did smoking, it's cheaper and less antisocial. But the truth is that even factoring in the findings of this study, vaping is less harmful than tobacco by multiple orders of magnitude.
 

mikepetro

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So what does this mean for the many vapers now brandishing Smok TFV8s, Blazer 200s, Arctic V12s and other 12 coil tanks that are regularly vaped above 100 watts?
Just because someone is running 100 watts doesnt mean they are running high temp.

You can build a quad coil atty with big fat wire and only run 425F at that 100watts.

On the other hand someone running only 10watts on a tiny coil might be running 520F.
 

Lessifer

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  • Temperature is the variable where the bad stuff happens. (breakpoint of 480ish)
  • Wattage is a component of temp, but wattage alone wont make bad stuff happen until the TEMP breakpoint is exceeded.
  • Wattag is not the breakpoint
  • If the breakpoint is temp, then temp is the variable that matters
You are right, but the two studies are not completely separate. What can be interpreted from the subtank study is that that particular tank, with that coil and at that wattage is not reaching the temperatures necessary to create the compounds being measured at meaningful levels, in spite of the fact that there is nothing limiting the temperature of the coil.
 

Lessifer

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I need a hot vape to be satisfied. I tried TC and found that less than 470-500 degrees anemic and dissatisfying, so assuming the data is valid I'm well within the danger zone whether I use TC or not.
This study does not overly concern me and I'll tell you why. If I am inhaling some formaldehyde and acetaldehyde, that’s 3998 less harmful compounds than I would smoking a cigarette which to me is officially a win.

Common sense dictates that inhaling anything other than fresh mountain air has to have some health risks. I've been vaping for seven years and I have never laboured under the assumption that there were no risks associated with vaping. The important factor is these health risks in comparison with smoking. If vaping was found to be equally harmful as smoking, I would still do it. Why, because I like it far more than I ever did smoking, it's cheaper and less antisocial. But the truth is that even factoring in the findings of this study, vaping is less harmful than tobacco by multiple orders of magnitude.
Keep in mind that just because your TC mod tells you the coil temperature is 500F, that doesn't necessarily mean that you are heating all, or any, of your liquid to 500F.
 
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