I see what you're saying now... I can't answer that as I don't know the properties of vg or pg well enough to say.
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New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers
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I see what you're saying now... I can't answer that as I don't know the properties of vg or pg well enough to say.
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Truth.
Rather than see a study of a "bad reaction" promoting TC vaping (or even other coil types or whatever), I'd rather see a study of TC vaping itself. You could add "normal vaping" itself too. I get that the CE4 stuff is supposed to represent a form of "normal vaping" but there's so much variety that I think the CE4 thing is an outlier.
But this phenomenon we're discussing is symptom of a greater problem...misuse whether deliberate or not...can produce nasty compounds. Sure, we'd taste them. But look at all the CRAP studies out there that show "e-cigs are worse than smoking" etc. All due to burning the heck out of the juice.
I suppose the next set of antz-sponsored TC studies will set all their temps to 450C or something (note Centigrade not F) and claim that vaping is bad for us.
Right, but the pan has to absorb the heat from it's source to transfer the heat to the water.
Perhaps and has to do with the composition of pg and vg that they do not behave the same as a simple compound, like water.
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Admittedly they may not, and probably don't behave the same as water but there is no reason to believe that the temperature of your coil is the same as the heat of the vapour you are inhaling.
I think I'll just puff away (non tc) until something a bit more substantial comes to play.
I think I'll just puff away (non tc) until something a bit more substantial comes to play.
yes but they are not absorbing the energy so much as passing it on, absorb has more to do with efficiency of energy transfer than anything how much energy applied is transferred and how quickly, but still does not change temp for boiling point
If they would just run the same tests that Kurt discussed in the second video, but with tc mods at various temperatures, we'd have a lot more answers.
I see what you mean, but what about this... you're running at 10W and have a decent vape going on. You bring the wattage up to 15W and hotter vape with more volume. Take that wattage to 20W and now you have a hot vape that tastes like burnt azz. Something is going on there and if the temp of the juice/vapor isn't, then what is?
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Okay - so I must be missing the obvious (has been known) but I can't see anything that says kanthal is bad and we should all be using temp control etc. I see
1) an Evolve rep saying that temp control is good because device independent study showed high temps cause high emissions and pointing to 'device independent' study as proof . No indication that temp control devices should be used below the study temps or that the temps in the study relate directly to real life temp. control vaping - just we should be able to control the temp. (and of course evolve devices do and may well be the way forward especially for new vapers). Presumably if they had a vape specific safe temp. all their boards would already have this as an upper limit?
2. A 'device independent' study (i.e. no tanks/ coils/ mods currently used by vapers) which set up an experiment to see at what temp. (under specific conditions) emissions were found. The specific conditions used a stainless steel chamber and saturated a specific amount of 'glass wool' at set temps and as far as I can see didn't even use a coil (- and if did no mention of it or what the coil was made of?). This hardly recreates real vaping - even the wick isn't what I would assume is the most common i.e. cellulose (cotton or rayon). It tells us that if PG & VG is heated to a certain temp. under the study's specific conditions there will be high levels of emissions and VG seems to be worse than PG. That seems to be all it tells us, nothing about real life vaping techniques or temperatures?
3. Dr Kurt gave a presentation outlining the various liquids etc and the pros and cons and then outlined the problems with some research - i.e. misunderstandings about the way vaping works, problem setting up research because of this and as a result misinterpretation about results. e.g. CE4's if used at high temps will burn and produce high levels of emissions, no-one uses them like this, if they do they don't burn them - so don't use CE4's for research about ecig emissions. Their research using 3rd generation tanks showed very little in the way of emissions which contradicts the 'device independent' study (and used wattage not temp. control for testing so presumably kanthal and cotton?). This seems to support kanthal is OK in normal use not the opposite.
Where are the studies showing that kanthal contributes to emissions, that stainless steel coils don't, that mods with temperature control should be used below a certain temperature etc.? I can see that there needs to be more research (and I believe Dr F has some in the pipeline), I can see that when and if a 'safe' vaping temp. limit is set - temp. control mods will be really useful, I can see lots of things - but I can't see where the existing research/ evidence regarding temp. control, kanthal etc. is?
1) an Evolve rep saying that temp control is good because device independent study showed high temps cause high emissions and pointing to 'device independent' study as proof . No indication that temp control devices should be used below the study temps or that the temps in the study relate directly to real life temp. control vaping - just we should be able to control the temp. (and of course evolve devices do and may well be the way forward especially for new vapers). Presumably if they had a vape specific safe temp. all their boards would already have this as an upper limit?
2. A 'device independent' study (i.e. no tanks/ coils/ mods currently used by vapers) which set up an experiment to see at what temp. (under specific conditions) emissions were found. The specific conditions used a stainless steel chamber and saturated a specific amount of 'glass wool' at set temps and as far as I can see didn't even use a coil (- and if did no mention of it or what the coil was made of?). This hardly recreates real vaping - even the wick isn't what I would assume is the most common i.e. cellulose (cotton or rayon). It tells us that if PG & VG is heated to a certain temp. under the study's specific conditions there will be high levels of emissions and VG seems to be worse than PG. That seems to be all it tells us, nothing about real life vaping techniques or temperatures?
3. Dr Kurt gave a presentation outlining the various liquids etc and the pros and cons and then outlined the problems with some research - i.e. misunderstandings about the way vaping works, problem setting up research because of this and as a result misinterpretation about results. e.g. CE4's if used at high temps will burn and produce high levels of emissions, no-one uses them like this, if they do they don't burn them - so don't use CE4's for research about ecig emissions. Their research using 3rd generation tanks showed very little in the way of emissions which contradicts the 'device independent' study (and used wattage not temp. control for testing so presumably kanthal and cotton?). This seems to support kanthal is OK in normal use not the opposite.
Where are the studies showing that kanthal contributes to emissions, that stainless steel coils don't, that mods with temperature control should be used below a certain temperature etc.? I can see that there needs to be more research (and I believe Dr F has some in the pipeline), I can see that when and if a 'safe' vaping temp. limit is set - temp. control mods will be really useful, I can see lots of things - but I can't see where the existing research/ evidence regarding temp. control, kanthal etc. is?
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Not insulting to me, you are correct, in my case anyway. Yeah, I'm old and set in my ways, and I like what I get from what I've spent a small fortune on acquiring. Sure, I could take all my Provaris, and Reos mods to the classifieds, get some money out of these death sticks from a lot of unsuspecting, and uninformed souls there, but at this point in my life, I'm not going to.
I've tried SS wire on my mods, non tc, and found I'd rather use Kanthal. So, not raggin on ya here, just explaining my position, not that I really need to.
I've wondered the same thing. The workshop occurred on Feb 21st, seems like more of this would be mainstream by now.
But isn't that the Double Edge of this Sword.
Because on One Side, Naysayers can point at the Above 410F results and say that here is Concrete Evidence that e-Cigarettes are Harmful. And should be Regulated back to the Stone Age.
But on the Other Side, Proponents of e-Cigarettes can point at the Below 410F results and say this is what we have been Say'n All Along. That e-Cigarettes are Less Harmful than Smoking. And that they should be Promoted as Viable Harm Reduction to those who smoke.
This is entirely a guess but, at some point the rate at which you're vaporizing liquid will surpass the rate at which your wick can supply the liquid. Maybe at that point the temperature spikes so high that you bypass the boiling point and reach the thermal breakdown point?
My takeaway is this: Vaporize your juice (well) below 470 degrees F or it can create nasty stuff. For a margin of safety, 440-450 would probably be a good reference mark to keep the temp below.
So, how can you monitor/regulate the temp of your vape? We all know how, with proper temp control.
Probably even a good idea to use the temp control like a safety limiter and keep the wattage down to where the TC barely kicks in.
At least that's what I got from it.
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So, how can you monitor/regulate the temp of your vape? We all know how, with proper temp control.
Probably even a good idea to use the temp control like a safety limiter and keep the wattage down to where the TC barely kicks in.
At least that's what I got from it.
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Not insulting to me, you are correct, in my case anyway. Yeah, I'm old and set in my ways, and I like what I get from what I've spent a small fortune on acquiring. Sure, I could take all my Provaris, and Reos mods to the classifieds, get some money out of these death sticks from a lot of unsuspecting, and uninformed souls there, but at this point in my life, I'm not going to.
I've tried SS wire on my mods, non tc, and found I'd rather use Kanthal. So, not raggin on ya here, just explaining my position, not that I really need to.
And it's all good really... for me, it's more the "it's garbage because I don't (or able to figure it out) use it" mentality that's annoying, not just with vaping, but anything in general. It's one thing to have a preference, it's another to ramble against something that you never even tried or couldn't get it to work.
yeah I understand that, sadly, vaping is still in development and there's new stuff coming out every week... I have myself a stock that I calculate that at the rate we vape at my house, I probably can sustain our vaping for a good 20 years.. with batteries being the only hardware that would be needed. Worst part is that I didn't stock on purpose, just getting new stuff to try, finding some things that were working well and got a bit of extra... it just accumulates...
that's playing it on the side of caution until further evidence can concretely say one or the other. That's your decision.
personally I already use tc at 400f so nothing changes but curiosity is peaked
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