New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers

[happy valley]

This far from doom. It is just tweaking things to be safer.

Agreed and thanks Mike for broaching the subject. As a retired engineer, just from the standpoint of intellectual curiosity I find the discussion worthwhile, not to mention any health benefits that might be in play. It offers an intriguing starting point and motivation to pursue further study. ;-)

 

[zoiDman]

Right, but the pan has to absorb the heat from it's source to transfer the heat to the water.

Perhaps and has to do with the composition of pg and vg that they do not behave the same as a simple compound, like water.


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Say I submerge a Heating Coil into VG and then apply Voltage to the Heating Coil so the coil heats up at the Same Rate as the VG's Heat Transfer Rate, what happens?

Does Everything heat up at the Same Rate? Until a Thermal Equilibrium is reached and Everything is the Same Temperature?

Now say I do the Same thing but the Voltage I apply to the Heating Coil heats the coil Much Faster the then the VG's ability to Transfer Heat?

Does the Same thing occur?

 

[MMW]

I can see people glancing into their vapocalypse stash, giving the stink eye to that mech they put away for the long haul!

#mechlyphe

 

[Zutankhamun]

My take home.

buy myself a nice, new, evolv TC device...

 

[Plettschner]

Say I submerge a Heating Coil into VG and then apply Voltage to the Heating Coil so the coil heats up at the Same Rate as the VG's Heat Transfer Rate, what happens?

Does Everything heat up at the Same Rate? Until a Thermal Equilibrium is reached and Everything is the Same Temperature?

Now say I do the Same thing but the Voltage I apply to the Heating Coil heats the coil Much Faster the then the VG's ability to Transfer Heat?

Does the Same thing occur?

I would take a gander that with a hotter coil, the vg would heat up faster around the coil as it could not dissipate the heat throughout fast enough for even temp rise. Possibly to the point of scorching on the coil's surface, producing black gunk (carbon).


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[zoiDman]

I can see people glancing into their vapocalypse stash, giving the stink eye to that mech they put away for the long haul!

#mechlyphe

I'm not.

In Fact, I'm hitting on a Mech Squonker Right Now.

But I might be Squonking a Tad more than I used to Previously to ensure I Don't get a Dry Hit.

 

[mikepetro]

You know, nobody is saying "kanthal is bad".

My only premise here, is that "temperature matters". At least it appears that science is pointing us in that direction. Not just this particular study, but there have been others as well. Enough to warrant looking into it anyway, and then decide if it matters to you or not. Judging by the 24 pages of posts in a days time, it appears to matter to some folks.

Now, if you do care about temperature, kanthal is probably not the best choice of wire.

 

[Plettschner]

I would take a gander that with a hotter coil, the vg would heat up faster around the coil as it could not dissipate the heat throughout fast enough for even temp rise. Possibly to the point of scorching on the coil's surface, producing black gunk (carbon).


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Just reading what I wrote... Hey! Water doesn't scorch!


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[NU_FTW]

My take home.

Buy myself a nice, new, evolv TC device...

can't tell, sarcasm?

 

[zoiDman]

I would take a gander that with a hotter coil, the vg would heat up faster around the coil as it could not dissipate the heat throughout fast enough for even temp rise. Possibly to the point of scorching on the coil's surface, producing black gunk (carbon).


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Seems Reasonable.

An Atomizer, when you think about it, is Just a Heat Exchanger. The Heat Source is the Coil. And the Exchange Medium is the e-Liquid.

The Rate of Heat Exchange is Kinda Important.

Just like anyone Knows who has Wicked something Poorly. And then they got a Dry Hit because the wicking "couldn't keep up".

 

[skoony]

Just another study that proves nothing. Our juice should never reach 450 F.
Period. The coils may very well get that hot or hotter. The juice should not.
VG may be problematic due to the fact it's boiling point is north of 550 F.
PG boils at about 360 F. The residual water in the juice at 212 F.(There will be water
in the juice due to absorption. Any impurities listed are 99.9% water. Water is
typically added at a certain percentage for consistent viscosity and quality control.
The main ingredients of PG consist of water and propylene oxide. The main ingredient of VG
is water and vegetable fat.)

PG and water vaporize at safe temperatures thus atomizing the juice into a fine aerosol
way below 450 F. Power to the coil transforms to heat which vaporizes components
in the juice which in turn atomizes the majority of the liquid. What we inhale is mostly
aerosol not,vapor caused by heat. E=mc2. Electricity transformed to heat, transformed
to vapor,transformed to mechanical force that creates a super fine aerosol. Compare it to
ones basic bottle of Windex. Muscle contraction (energy),compresses air (force) to create
a aerosol. Ones basic cigalike would literally melt in ones mouth. Metal drip tips would
weld to ones lips if the juice actually got anywhere near 400 F,let alone even hotter.

Mike

 

[Zutankhamun]

can't tell, sarcasm?

I can't tell either You talking about me or to me?
If it's to me, then yes.
In fact I'm vaping my mech right now. I don't believe this.
I'll take a good look at public health England and NHS findings again. I'd imagine that it's safer than smoking either way. I doubt they used tc devices and still came up with the number 95.

Public health England studies or some shifty looking whiteboard in some dudes basement.

Remember they did have chairs though...

 

[AttyPops]

The Rate of Heat Exchange is Kinda Important.

Tail wagging the dog, or dog wagging the tail?

The idea of TC is to make the coil-heat the "driver". Whereas with other vaping, the heat is a RESULT/output of the other processes (all complex and working together) with constant wattage or voltage being the input (per puff. then we have mechs where volts vary over time too).

So the heat is managed, thus so is the rate of exchange. Because it's the heat that's the "driver" in TC. The "heat curve" should be nearly flat with TC, but with the other styles, it would be on the roller-coaster. Thing is, the roller-coaster could be well designed and fairly flat too.

Basically, you're getting into things like wicking diameter and juice viscosity as well as coil gauge (because heat transfer). I mean, so many variables to produce a result. Whereas if you control the critical factor directly.........

 

[Smoke_too_much]

Based on this new information I've decided to give up vaping and go back to cigs. Only problem I'm having is trying to figure out how to get them lit under 450 degrees because my Bic keeps pushing out 3,600 degrees. Oh well back to vaping I guess.

 

[Belhade]

I think I'll just employ the Ray Bradbury method: if my coils can ignite paper I'm probably in the danger zone.

 

[Mowgli]

You have to be a pwofessionaw vapo...

Thanks for posting that. I LMAO when I saw that OUATIALFA

 

[MMW]

I'm not.

In Fact, I'm hitting on a Mech Squonker Right Now.

But I might be Squonking a Tad more than I used to Previously to ensure I Don't get a Dry Hit.

Nor I.

 

[mikepetro]

I have been sold on TC since day 1.

My initial motivations had nothing to do with carcinogens. I liked it because I get a far more consistent vape from a TC mod than ANYTHING else I had ever tried, and those who knew me in the co-op section know that I tried damn near everything that came out. The stance of "temperature matters" was one I took long before carcinogens hit the headlines. I say temp matters because I can feel and taste it. I can take my mod and adjust it up and down and experience a clear difference in the vape. The beauty of TC is that once I find the sweet spot it will stay there.

Now, science appears to be saying the high end of the range is bad. If you believe it then TC mods are an obvious answer.

I think some folks are participating in this just to be able to argue. Take what you can, and dont pay attention to the rest.

Oh, just in case anyone is wondering: I dont sell anything, I dont make money off of vaping, I wasnt put up to this by anyone, all I care about is advancing the concept of vaping.

 

[Imfallen_Angel]

Just another study that proves nothing. Our juice should never reach 450 F.
Period. The coils may very well get that hot or hotter. The juice should not.
VG may be problematic due to the fact it's boiling point is north of 550 F.
PG boils at about 360 F. The residual water in the juice at 212 F.(There will be water
in the juice due to absorption. Any impurities listed are 99.9% water. Water is
typically added at a certain percentage for consistent viscosity and quality control.
The main ingredients of PG consist of water and propylene oxide. The main ingredient of VG
is water and vegetable fat.)

PG and water vaporize at safe temperatures thus atomizing the juice into a fine aerosol
way below 450 F. Power to the coil transforms to heat which vaporizes components
in the juice which in turn atomizes the majority of the liquid. What we inhale is mostly
aerosol not,vapor caused by heat. E=mc2. Electricity transformed to heat, transformed
to vapor,transformed to mechanical force that creates a super fine aerosol. Compare it to
ones basic bottle of Windex. Muscle contraction (energy),compresses air (force) to create
a aerosol. Ones basic cigalike would literally melt in ones mouth. Metal drip tips would
weld to ones lips if the juice actually got anywhere near 400 F,let alone even hotter.

Mike

That's pretty much my take on this stuff ... The only factor that you didn't approach to consider would be the gunk that builds up on the coils...

So basically.. keep your coils clean people!

I do find that depending on my build, I can have my TC settings to be very different, which I attribute to the multiple factors that comes in play when building.. length of wire, size of the coil, number of wraps, spaced or pinched, the way I got the wick done, etc. and I can build two sets of very similar coils, and yet, I have to set my wattage and TC numbers somewhat different. Some coils I have to set at 500+ F to get some warmth, while others (including different tanks/decks) I can have at under 300F and have just has much warmth. I never considered the numbers to be the actual temperature of the liquid, but simply a coefficient setting to get the warmth that I want. If I was to measure the actual vapor's temp. I'm sure that I'd be getting about the same range, regardless what I set my mod at.

Just reading what I wrote... Hey! Water doesn't scorch!

Heck I've seen some members in here that would probably debate you on that and think that they're being all smart about it too.

 

[NU_FTW]

That's pretty much my take on this stuff ... The only factor that you didn't approach to consider would be the gunk that builds up on the coils...

So basically.. keep your coils clean people!

I do find that depending on my build, I can have my TC settings to be very different, which I attribute to the multiple factors that comes in play when building.. length of wire, size of the coil, number of wraps, spaced or pinched, the way I got the wick done, etc. and I can build two sets of very similar coils, and yet, I have to set my wattage and TC numbers somewhat different. Some coils I have to set at 500+ F to get some warmth, while others (including different tanks/decks) I can have at under 300F and have just has much warmth. I never considered the numbers to be the actual temperature of the liquid, but simply a coefficient setting to get the warmth that I want. If I was to measure the actual vapor's temp. I'm sure that I'd be getting about the same range, regardless what I set my mod at.




Heck I've seen some members in here that would probably debate you on that and think that they're being all smart about it too.

tinker out a "smart coil" that tells the charger when its gunked up