New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers

[GaryInTexas]

I would think that if my kayfun lite with a cotton wick and a 3mm kanthal coil was heating in the 450 degree area that I would be getting significantly more vaper and burned cotton. Since I am not seeing that in my 8-12 watt vaping I suspect that my under 2 second draw is not reaching those temps at all. Not scientific but common sense tells me that a high coil temp would be burning my wick and producing a significant warm vapor.

 

[MMW]

I think some folks have just read through 24 pages of omg, arguments, and confusion and need a little levity.

If you were curious about tc or liked it, now is a good time to try it out. Plenty of knowledgeable people to help you get started.

Definitely a great read.

 

[classwife]

I am primarily a Mech user - AND I have always felt that it's the temperature that matters since it's the temperatures that create the toxins
( I love my Mechs - you can't have them - nope not ever ! )

Why I never followed the TC info - well, I felt I was within a safe zone.
(I don't even like a too warm vape)

Now my interest has switched on...just maybe I don't really know what I thought I knew...

I feel like Johnny 5 - More Input !!

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 27, Guests: 8)

 

[AttyPops]

Yeah, well, I can't imaging how much damage I must have done to myself in the days of "blue foam". Those dang standard atomizers never worked properly...I ended up dripping for years as a result (and probably saved my .... from loads of nasties).

Just keep the wicks wet and temps low as practical to get a decent vape. Don't shoot for "the high end" shoot for "the low end" of the workability scale for your day to day vaping.

 

[zoiDman]

Tail wagging the dog, or dog wagging the tail?

...

It's really a Little of Both.

Before TC, Most Vaper's did a Good Job of controlling the Exchange of Heat via Wicking and Air Flow.

But Dry Hit's could Happened. And (for those who choose to) it was Hard to Climb Up on that Bleeding Edge to get the Maximum Hit without crossing into Dry Hits.

 

[KenD]

I always hated CE everything and anything--from day 1--CE2, CE3, CE4--you name it.

But they paved the way.

I was fairly happy with the ce4, but that was before I knew of anything better.

Sent from my K6000 Pro using Tapatalk

 

[skoony]

Interesting that the CE4 was bad at all power levels and the Nautilus could be seemingly ok.

CE4's were designed for basic ego style battery and typically ran from 2.1 to 2.5 ohms
at between roughly 5-6 watts. Constraints built into ce4's such as wire gauge and
coil circumference limited wicking capacity which grossly over exaggerates heat issues.
People by DIY'ing over came some issues by changing wire gauge and coil circumference
to a certain extent. Then they invented tanks. Remember how this all started. With cigalikes.
They are the first horseless carriage of our industry.

Mike

 

[NU_FTW]

I am primarily a Mech user - AND I have always felt that it's the temperature that matters since it's the temperatures that create the toxins
( I love my Mechs - you can't have them - nope not ever ! )

Why I never followed the TC info - well, I felt I was within a safe zone.
(I don't even like a too warm vape)

Now my interest has switched on...just maybe I don't really know what I thought I knew...

I feel like Johnny 5 - More Input !!

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 27, Guests: 8)

I was like you , minus the mech part. All my mods for the past two or more years have had tc ability, but didn't try it til 3 months ago. What I can't say is whether or not this information would have me jumping on a tc mod ( if I didn't already own 10ish) unless the physics of vg/pg is vastly different than that of water e-liquid should not be able to reach these questionable temps...but still has me curious. like too much water can kill you but how much is too much how easy is it to avoid going across that threshold.


this study creates more questions than answers imho, but questions worthy of an answer

 

[happy valley]

I think some folks have just read through 24 pages of omg, arguments, and confusion and need a little levity.

If you were curious about tc or liked it, now is a good time to try it out. Plenty of knowledgeable people to help you get started.

Definitely a great read.

Agreed. I know I won't find many similar discussions at the local vape shop where it's pretty much all about the cloudz dude.

 

[KenD]

Don't we really have two categories here tho ?
1) The Dreaded Nasty Dry Hit (which personally I think is mostly a metal taste)
2) The Overheated Liquid Hit which may or may not be detectable at the lower end of bad.

The first is easy to avoid by just paying attention to what you are doing.
The second is what has my gears turning...

Exactly! Anyone can taste a dry hit, but I think it's naive to assume that our taste buds - especially for former smokers - would be able to easily discern the levels of nasties at 470℉ and slightly above. I can definitely vape at 480℉ and not taste anything off (with most liquids), and I have no doubt that I vaped at temperatures above that before tc.

Sent from my K6000 Pro using Tapatalk

 

[zoiDman]

I was fairly happy with the ce4, but that was before I knew of anything better.

Sent from my K6000 Pro using Tapatalk

I cut my teeth on CE2's. Was part of that evolving Train Wreck of 3 steps forward with 2 steps back from the E2 to the Last version (v4.5?) of the CE2. Had my Mod (Modification) Tech down to a Science. Even bought 200pcs when I heard Royal Smoker was going to Stop producing them.

But same as you, Better things came along. That seems like a Different Era now.

 

[Imfallen_Angel]

I would think that if my Kayfun lite with a cotton wick and a 3mm kanthal coil was heating in the 450 degree area that I would be getting significantly more vaper and burned cotton. Since I am not seeing that in my 8-12 watt vaping I suspect that my under 2 second draw is not reaching those temps at all. Not scientific but common sense tells me that a high coil temp would be burning my wick and producing a significant warm vapor.

Just looked it up:

Cotton will self-ignite at roughly 400 degrees C (some 760 deg F), but can sustain a flame at much lower temperatures, somewhere around 200-210 deg C.

So... following the fact that the wick doesn't ignite, we know that it's not reaching these temperature because the VG/PG is evaporating at a much lesser temperature, and maintains a cooling effect as long as you don't run out and get a dry hit.

Then with the airflow, I think that the question that many of us are wondering about is what is the actual vapor's temperature as it gets vaporized and inhaled.

 

[Lessifer]

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

There are actually three different studies being discussed in this thread.
1. Wang et al, who heated pg, vg, e-liquid in a steel tube reactor, and detected volatile compounds beginning around 450F and spiking above 470F.

2. Evolv collected data from their users and found that vapers are often running their coils to temperatures exceeding 450F.

3. Kurt, who tested a subtank and a few other attys and didn't detect any significant compounds up to 25W(for the subtank).

So, here's my opinion. You don't want your liquid reaching temperatures at or above 470F. TC can help you keep your COIL temperature down to whatever you want it to be. With a non-tc mod you don't know what temperature your coil is reaching. That doesn't mean that your liquid is necessarily breaking down in your atomizer.

 

[Imfallen_Angel]

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

There are actually three different studies being discussed in this thread.
1. Wang et al, who heated pg, vg, e-liquid in a steel tube reactor, and detected volatile compounds beginning around 450F and spiking above 470F.

2. Evolv collected data from their users and found that vapers are often running their coils to temperatures exceeding 450F.

3. Kurt, who tested a subtank and a few other attys and didn't detect any significant compounds up to 25W(for the subtank).

So, here's my opinion. You don't want your liquid reaching temperatures at or above 470F. TC can help you keep your COIL temperature down to whatever you want it to be. With a non-tc mod you don't know what temperature your coil is reaching. That doesn't mean that your liquid is necessarily breaking down in your atomizer.

Seems about right, but again, for me, the recurring point for me is, your settings on your mod may say a temperature being 450, BUT, this is an extrapolation done by calculation of the variance in resistance of the wire. Basically, it's just measuring the wire's variance, and not the actual temperature of the vapour... between the cooling effect of evaporation, and airflow, the temperature of the vapour is much lesser than the number, and ends up being cool to warmth to hot, and the way we all measure this is with our mouth as we take the vapour in.

With this study, I'm getting more concerned with the gunk build-up on coils which is directly exposed to the very hot coil, than the evaporated liquid to be honest.

I've done a few searches and wasn't able to find anything in detail about this sort of thing (the actual temperature range of the evaporated liquid pertaining to the coil's temperature).. anyone has something?

 

[trying]

This study will be used by the Anti- Cole/Bishop people as moving the grandfather date to August 2016 would result in protected status for some Sub-Ohm vaporizers that can produce temperatures above 470 F.

 

[KenD]

This is a great discussion, sophmore physics class.

I'm puzzled by the climbing temperature after each puff in the study data. I test for that with a stand alone ohm meter. What I find is my coil returns to resting temperature very very fast, Would that be because more liquid is flowing to the coil and cooling it and doing that fast because the coil has so little mass and because I'm not firing? I wish more people would run firmware that reports last puff info and report it here. I only use one atomizer.

I watched a few of the viideos and given the stakes for us i wouldn't buy a used car from any of them. Thats not a scientific observation.

If I fire a coil (in a tank, liquid present) it'll take a good while before the resistance returns to the base level (you can test by trying to reread the resistance). It's definitely nowhere near instant. I mostly use 28 ga stainless steel dual coils, and 26 ga singles - with 8-9 wraps 3 mm id - so nothing extreme with a lot of coil mass.

Sent from my K6000 Pro using Tapatalk

 

[zoiDman]

...

So, here's my opinion. You don't want your liquid reaching temperatures at or above 470F. TC can help you keep your COIL temperature down to whatever you want it to be. With a non-tc mod you don't know what temperature your coil is reaching. That doesn't mean that your liquid is necessarily breaking down in your atomizer.

That's the way I see it. And things would need to be Evaluated on a Case by Case basis.

 

[Eskie]

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

There are actually three different studies being discussed in this thread.
1. Wang et al, who heated pg, vg, e-liquid in a steel tube reactor, and detected volatile compounds beginning around 450F and spiking above 470F.

2. Evolv collected data from their users and found that vapers are often running their coils to temperatures exceeding 450F.

3. Kurt, who tested a subtank and a few other attys and didn't detect any significant compounds up to 25W(for the subtank).

So, here's my opinion. You don't want your liquid reaching temperatures at or above 470F. TC can help you keep your COIL temperature down to whatever you want it to be. With a non-tc mod you don't know what temperature your coil is reaching. That doesn't mean that your liquid is necessarily breaking down in your atomizer.

Aaand.....all correct. There is, IMO, a disconnect between 1 and 2 as there's no data to support TC as keeping nasties away as no study was performed with TC. I get Evolv likes to sell TC boards. I even buy them. I really like them. I have no idea if in real world use it it protecting me from nasty chemicals or just letting me experience a clean vape.

And the kicker is #3, a real life test of a tank we're all sorta familiar with even if we don't own one, with a Kanthal factory coil (probably) and aldehyde measurements well, well below the whole heat in a SS chamber study.

So yes, TC is not necessary to avoid bad crap in your vape (see #3) and #2 has never been tested to show it stops the results obtained in #1 at the temperatures being thrown around.

Which brings my one real irritation about the above. Results #1 are probably reproducible and true with the same setup in another lab. #2 contorts itself to somehow state that users will end up at higher temps (thanks to ECigStats) THEREFORE TC is an important safety mechanism to protect vapers from their own misguided choices. If Evolv wants folks to actually buy that line of thought, do the study, then come tell us the results. not imply something from study X makes their study Y correct. IMO, I think Evolv is doing vapers a disservice in trying to make facts fit their business model rather than the converse. Because one thing I'm really not expecting is Evolv coming out with a firmware update capping temps at 470F to protect their customers.

 

[Katdarling]

The information (if believed) is about carcinogens at high temperatures.

The problem with kanthal is that you dont know if you are exceeding these temps or not, precisely because there is no information.

Precisely no information (yet) seems to be the key. So we MAY be, we may NOT be.

 

[NU_FTW]

would be nice to see someone attempt to take 50/50 70/30 30/70 and put in a pot and see how hot they can get the liquids I would but don't have any instruments to measure that high of temp.

I suspect once they reach their boiling point , that like water, will shed any excess energy in the form of vapor