New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers

[cigatron]

Thanks cigatron.

I followed that thread for quite awhile. And there is a Tremendous amount of Good Information in it.

Hmmmm, I thought I recognized your brain from somewhere....

 

[Lessifer]

Oh gawd, another one of "them"......
I have seen some nice compact dna squonkers though, just not my cup of tea.

Life becomes much simpler when you don't have to care about how your coils are wicked.

Squonking, the original(and best ) answer to dry hits.

 

[cigatron]

Oh, I'm not worried about being without a mod, I have plenty of quality mechs that will last forever, with plenty of spare parts.

As I said, if it turns out there is something wrong with the way I vape, I'll reevaluate then. If that happens, hopefully the mods will still be around. Of course, I'd want a dna tc squonker.

Lost Vapes Therion BF DNA75

Not the most expensive or nicest one out there but it gets the job done.
TC brings a whole new level of enjoyment to bf attys. Over squonked?, no problem, if the mod is set up right it will throw extra power at the coil to alleviate those first couple of hot spitty pulls.

 

[zoiDman]

Hmmmm, I thought I recognized your brain from somewhere....

Yeah... It used to have Bubbles.

LOL

 

[kbeam418]

Longevity on a generic inexpensive board? IDK, how long does it usually take to burn out a cheap mod? A higher end DNA or YiHi board? Longer, BUT, just like vaping, they haven't been around long enough to give you good long term reliability data to point to. Given warranties are for a year on a DNA, you know it should be good (or serviced) for that long.

Those boards should last a very long time, other than the screen. The components themselves have a very long lifespan, electrolytic capacitors usually last 25-30 years, high quality switches can last just as long, cpus don't really wear out as long as they're not overheating.

 

[Kotton]

Does it actually do it properly and reliably? There have been a number of mods that claim to tc kanthal and nuchrome but to my knowledge only hohm tech has actually managed to do it. And even then it's not tc in the same way as with ni200, titanium, or ss.

Sent from my K6000 Pro using Tapatalk

Have no idea how accurate. We will just have to wait until the horde of reviewers has tried them out. More specifically Djlsb and Busardo who measure how accurate it is.

 

[dwcraig1]

If there's anything that I've learned from this thread is that folks sure are passionate about their poison(s).

 

[Imfallen_Angel]

what's the longevity of an average tc board?

Same as any electronic device... my cell phone and tablets is a good 5 years old, and still going, my old PDAs are still going after a good 10+ years.

I have a few old mods that are over 2-3 years old, still no issue, the battery will probably give out way before the board will (and why I'll never get sealed batteries type now). None of my mods are DNAs either, and I've got no worries at all.

I've had only one that died because I had a battery short (and vent) as I was inserting it and the wrap ripped on the pin causing a contact.

So, unless something bad happens as getting liquid leak into it, dust, dropping it, etc. or that you overheat the mod by vaping too harshly on it (making your tank hot enough to cook an egg), there's absolutely no reason why it wouldn't last many many years.

I'd go with the buttons going before the board would.

 

[herb]

Life becomes much simpler when you don't have to care about how your coils are wicked.

Squonking, the original(and best ) answer to dry hits.

Unless you forget to squonk which has happened to me , only me though nobody else . I live Murphys law.

 

[Cosmic_Glaze]

Yeah... So I should be (In Theory) be able to move my Subtank Mini off of my TC Mod and then put it on a Non-TC Mod and run it at 16 Watts and have the Same Non-Toxic Output. As long as I don't run the Tank Dry.

I did a similar test last night.. on a single coil rda, at 30 watts 3 large blasts back to back .59 ohms.. SS316L never hit 420 degrees... what does that mean??? Safe in wattage mode??
Very Confusing
I usually use wattage mode / kanthal.....FYI

 

[zoiDman]

I did a similar test last night.. on a single coil rda, at 30 watts 3 large blasts back to back .59 ohms.. SS316L never hit 420 degrees... what does that mean??? Safe in wattage mode??
Very Confusing
I usually use wattage mode / kanthal.....FYI

If you're Not going over 420F, and the Study Premise is correct, then it would mean that you are Not producing the Toxins found in the Study.

Just because a person Doesn't use a TC Mod doesn't mean that Coil Temperatures have to be High.

Good Wicking and Good Airflow can keep Coil Temperatures in check.

 

[r055co]

Meh, until it receives a good peer review and the Royal College of Physicians pulls their backing of Vaping I'm just going to consider this as BS.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

 

[r055co]

Let me see.....

Long-term vaping 'far safer than smoking' says 'landmark' study - National Library of Medicine - PubMed Health

https://www.google.com/amp/www.sand...h/sd-me-vaping-safety-20170206-story,amp.html

Kinda opposite ya know

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

 

[Angela0111]

With tc you can stay under 400F but it doesn't say a thing, because it does not actually measure the temperature of the coil. My guess is even @ 200F the coil can be over the 400F or more when using tc.
Best thing is to have a cool vape and do short puffs with a pauze.
Hope the future will bring us real temperature sensors soon!

 

[Cosmic_Glaze]

If you're Not going over 420F, and the Study Premise is correct, then it would mean that you are Not producing the Toxins found in the Study.

Just because a person Doesn't use a TC Mod doesn't mean that Coil Temperatures have to be High.

Good Wicking and Good Airflow can keep Coil Temperatures in check.

This has been an interesting thread, but I think that you can vape in safe parameters even in wattage mode. I guess what I'm getting from that experiment that you and I did was , good wicking provides juice to the coil keeping the temp low enough to be safe even in wattage mode..
When I went up 5 more watts (35w)with back to back hits it finally started to kick in. Now I don't vape like that (crazy chain vaping) and I don't think most people do but I was trying to prove a point through extreme conditions.
Its when your wick can't keep up due to higher watts the coil and lack of juice (causing the little but remaining juice) to get too hot creating those dangerous conditions. Seems like a saturated wick won't get as hot.
That's kinda what I'm getting out of it. Totally could be wrong just a theory....
Yes I do get why TC can help for many vapers and can be a safer route... I just think that those harmful conditions are not in every device or build that is in wattage mode.

 

[Stubby]

Okay - so I must be missing the obvious (has been known) but I can't see anything that says kanthal is bad and we should all be using temp control etc. I see

1) an Evolve rep saying that temp control is good because device independent study showed high temps cause high emissions and pointing to 'device independent' study as proof . No indication that temp control devices should be used below the study temps or that the temps in the study relate directly to real life temp. control vaping - just we should be able to control the temp. (and of course evolve devices do and may well be the way forward especially for new vapers). Presumably if they had a vape specific safe temp. all their boards would already have this as an upper limit?

2. A 'device independent' study (i.e. no tanks/ coils/ mods currently used by vapers) which set up an experiment to see at what temp. (under specific conditions) emissions were found. The specific conditions used a stainless steel chamber and saturated a specific amount of 'glass wool' at set temps and as far as I can see didn't even use a coil (- and if did no mention of it or what the coil was made of?). This hardly recreates real vaping - even the wick isn't what I would assume is the most common i.e. cellulose (cotton or rayon). It tells us that if PG & VG is heated to a certain temp. under the study's specific conditions there will be high levels of emissions and VG seems to be worse than PG. That seems to be all it tells us, nothing about real life vaping techniques or temperatures?

3. Dr Kurt gave a presentation outlining the various liquids etc and the pros and cons and then outlined the problems with some research - i.e. misunderstandings about the way vaping works, problem setting up research because of this and as a result misinterpretation about results. e.g. CE4's if used at high temps will burn and produce high levels of emissions, no-one uses them like this, if they do they don't burn them - so don't use CE4's for research about ecig emissions. Their research using 3rd generation tanks showed very little in the way of emissions which contradicts the 'device independent' study (and used wattage not temp. control for testing so presumably kanthal and cotton?). This seems to support kanthal is OK in normal use not the opposite.

Where are the studies showing that kanthal contributes to emissions, that stainless steel coils don't, that mods with temperature control should be used below a certain temperature etc.? I can see that there needs to be more research (and I believe Dr F has some in the pipeline), I can see that when and if a 'safe' vaping temp. limit is set - temp. control mods will be really useful, I can see lots of things - but I can't see where the existing research/ evidence regarding temp. control, kanthal etc. is?

What is interesting is the bias this thread has taken. People who use TC interpret the results to support there bias, while ignoring the real world results of Kurt that shows essentially no problem with third generation tanks.

CE4's are junk and that has been well known for a long time. The top coil design with very long wicks is an outdated design for many reasons. It is not at all surprising they have major problems with overheating. Modern tanks with a bottom coil design that keeps the wick saturated solves the issue as Kurt's study shows. Kanthal appears to be well within the tolerance level for safe vaping with a third generation tank in the real world, but that is not what is being heard on this thread.

Most of what we are hearing are conclusions the studies do not support, in fact contradict (if that sounds familiar it is the trademark of the junk science coming out of tobacco control).

 

[Zakillah]

Its pretty easy to me. If you want to measure the amount of Carbonyls that E-Zigs produce, you have to analyse the vapor taken from an E-Zig.
You don't do it by using a random heating element.

I give you a random fact about vapor composition from E-Zigs.
If you heat a 50:50 mix of PG/VG in a beaker to, lets say 210°C; the vapor created will have roughly a 60/40 composition, as PG has a lower boiling point.
So if you have a 50/50 mix in your atty, will the vapor have a 60/40 composition as well? Well....no. E-Zig vapor always has the same composition as the liquid used. I have tested this with 70/30; 50/50 and 20/80 liquids.
You simply cant compare a heated beaker filled with liquid to an E-Zig. Neither can you seriously compare this random heating element to an E-Zig.

 

[r055co]

What is interesting is the bias this thread has taken. People who use TC interpret the results to support there bias, while ignoring the real world results of Kurt that shows essentially no problem with third generation tanks.

CE4's are junk and that has been well known for a long time. The top coil design with very long wicks is an outdated design for many reasons. it is not at all surprising they have major problems with overheating. Modern tanks with a bottom coil design that keeps the wick saturated solves the issue as Kurt's study shows. Kanthal appears to be well within the tolerance level for safe vaping with a third generation tank in the real world, but that is not what is being heard on this thread.

Most of what we are hearing are conclusions the studies do not support, in fact contradict (if that sounds familiar it is the trademark of the junk science coming out of tobacco control).

Its pretty easy to me. If you want to measure the amount of Carbonyls that E-Zigs produce, you have to analyse the vapor taken from an E-Zig.
You don't do it by using a random heating element.

I give you a random fact about vapor composition from E-Zigs.
If you heat a 50:50 mix of PG/VG in a beaker to, lets say 210°C; the vapor created will have roughly a 60/40 composition, as PG has a lower boiling point.
So if you have a 50/50 mix in your atty, will the vapor have a 60/40 composition as well? Well....no. E-Zig vapor always has the same composition as the liquid used. I have tested this with 70/30; 50/50 and 20/80 liquids.
You simply cant compare a heated beaker filled with liquid to an E-Zig. Neither can you seriously compare this random heating element to an E-Zig.

Well if there are so called Toxin's coming out in Vaping why don't they show up in the Urine from the actual peer reviewed study's I posted?

So far there haven't been any studies showing the dangers and toxin's in Vaping once they have went through legitimate peer review.

 

[Zakillah]

You wont get an argument from me on this...

 

[Verb]

With tc you can stay under 400F but it doesn't say a thing, because it does not actually measure the temperature of the coil. My guess is even @ 200F the coil can be over the 400F or more when using tc.
Best thing is to have a cool vape and do short puffs with a pauze.
Hope the future will bring us real temperature sensors soon!

I can easily build a coil that runs hot but produces a cool vape (small surface area, high power, wide open air). And just as easily build the opposite, a cool running coil that produces a warm to hot vape.