New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers

[LoriP1702]

ego toppers are probably somewhat limited now, I don't even know what's currently available. So, if they don't want to change to a different mod, and they want to stick with the ego/clearo form, I'd say the best bet would be to look for something with the most wire mass, like a dual coil, and bottom coil(as opposed to top like a CE4), and if possible something with adjustable airflow.

Thanks!
Much appreciated!!

 

[sofarsogood]

Thanks! I'm sure this info will help!!

I vape like Robin. KFL/ProVari - 1.4 or 1.5 ohm, 3.4v, I used a laser temp gun on my open coil.
Got it as hot as I possibly could, far exceeding how I would normally vape, and the highest reading I could get was 185F.

My RM2, on my Reosmod, 1.4 ohm coil, whatever volts that pushes, my reading with the coil wicked, and juice, was 75F.
Not sure that's a very accurate way to check how I'm vaping, but I'm hoping that I'm in the "ok" range.

I've no desire to sub-ohm, and really don't want to have to learn more - ETA - (a whole new way)...I'm *well stocked up* for doomsday, and hoping it'll all be okay.
I'm okay with a little risk. (Life in general is risky. )
I think we fool ourselves if we think there won't be any risk, but I'm all for reducing it even more if possible.

I applaud the in depth conversation here, even if it's way over my head. I appreciate those who are working together, picking each others brains, so to speak, regarding the topic.
I can try to learn by reading here, but I can't add to the information shared.

I still think/hope that, with maybe a few exceptions, most methods of vaping are still much safer (overall) than smoking.

I just don't want a new person who might be reading this to lose hope.

What started this thread was a claim that coil temperatures higher than 470 degrees might harm the health of vapers. First, it's almost certainly not that simple but let's say it is that simple for the sake of argument. How do we figure out how far north or south we are of that value? At best i can only talk about my experience. When I switced from power regulation to temperature limited i was vaping 1.6 ohm kanthal coils at 20 watts in an rda. After some experimentation with temp control I settled on 30 max watts and 400 degrees firing a 1.3 ohm coil (which rises to 1.6 ohm when heated) Based on the real time feedback I'm getting from the new firmware in the last fiew days most of my puffs are still using 20 watts or less and now i know they rarely go above 260 F when the coil is saturated. That temp is 200 F below this supposed danger level. Am I "safe'? I think the way for vapers to address this concern is set up a TC build that mimicks your kanthal build and tweak it until it seems to be about the same as your power controled kanthal build and use the real time fiirmware to see what temps you're actually hitting. May be as long as you follow a few easy guidelines you can stay hundreds of degrees below this alledged danger point and still get exactly the vape you want without temp control and we can thumb our noses at these scare mongers. Of course if we do that they'll build some new contraption that turns e liquid in to bad stuff when it's frozen.

 

[mikepetro]

Yeah, that would be doable. Wrap a test coil around a glass-encapsulated thermistor and have the board read the actual temperature of the coil to determine the TCR.

But in the end, is that really any better for our purposes than the cotton browning test?

Or maybe a specially design test atty. That would be cool.

 

[LoriP1702]

What started this thread was a claim that coil temperatures higher than 470 degrees might harm he health of vapers. First, it's almost certainly not that simple but let's say it is that simple for the sake of argument. How do we figure out how far north or south we are of that value? At best i can only talk about my experience. When I switced from power regulation to temperature limited i was vaping 1.6 ohm kanthal coils at 20 watts in an rda. After some experimentation with temp control I settled on 30 max watts and 400 degrees firing a 1.3 ohm coil (which rises to 1.6 ohm when heated) Based on the real time feedback I'm getting in the last fiew days most of my puffs are still using 20 watts or less and now i know they rarely go above 260 F when he coil is saturated. That temp is 200 F below this supposed danger level. Am I "safe'? I think the way for vapers to address this concern is set up a TC build that mimicks your kanthal build and tweak it until it seems to be about the same as your power controled kanthal build and use the real time fiirmware to see what temps you're actually hitting. May be as long as you follow a few easy guidelines you can stay hundreds of degrees below this alledged danger point and still get exactly the vape you want without temp control and we can thumb our noses at these scare mongers.

Great advice.

Of course if we do that they'll build some new contraption that turns e liquid in to bad stuff when it's frozen.

*gasp*
...thankfully I'm already all set there.

 

[Steamer861]

Big Thanks to @mikepetro, for sharing his extensive knowledge of TC vaping
I would just like to add this. When I started with TC, back in the Ni200 days. TC wasn't easy for me
I found with Ni200 my main problem was a good solid connection to the atty posts.
The wire was thin & flimsy, If I tried to twist a few strands together to make it stronger,
it would lower my resistance too much. I continued to struggle to get what I thought was a good hit, hassle free.

What worked for me was Titanium Wire I was able to use a lower gauge (thicker wire) that not only solved my resistance problem, it also was easy to make a solid connection at the atty posts, very important! for TC as the chip reads the coil for the TC. So it should go with out saying a weak connection at the posts or the 510 causes problems for the TC chip.
Another advantage of a lower gauge wire was it was easier to clean with out a dry burn, I use spaced coils instead of contact coils like a lot of people use with Kanthol. With Ni200 using spaced coils, as soon as the coil got gunked up I had to change it, cause it would get damaged if I tied to clean them. Not the case with the lower gauge Titanium wire, I could use a small brush & dejunk the coil while still keeping it in tact This gave my coils longevity like a kanthol coil, Now I can simply dejunk my coil & rewick, all with out any dry burn.

Before some says well titanium wire makes white residue witch is harmful, If you use TC with titanium & don't ever! dry burn, in theory the coil will never get hotter than the Temperature you set. So no harmful residue will be created @ 450 degrees or lower

So for anyone, in-light of this new info wants to try TC vaping. Maybe Titanium wire at a lower gauge(24 or 26), mite make it a little easier for you.

I'm just sharing my experience with my conversion to TC vaping, hope it helps some of you out

 

[homeuser6]

all that tells us is coil temp. It doesnt tell us juice temp, and the assumption is that the coil gets hotter than the juice.

i mean a wicked and wet coil. was your example wet or dry? if juice temp is lower than coil temp just make coil temp lower than danger temp. am i oversimplifying? (most of this is moot to me since i couldn't get more than 240f out of my preferred setup)

 

[cigatron]

I have my doubts about this Leidenfrost Effect.

In a discussion with Evolv engineers regarding preheat on the DNA, they told me this:



Now I know some see Evolv as having a vested interest, but this conversation had nothing to do with studys, or sales, or anything else. This was in the context of how to get the most out of their product.

You can't have Leidenfrost Effect until the heat source (in our case the coil) is somewhat above the boiling point of the liquid in question.

Last I checked both water and pg have boiling points lower than our tc vaping temps.

 

[CMD-Ky]

I am glad that I didn't see any of this when I started, I'd still be on Marlboro's running away like the ignorant fool that I am. A REO, an RM2 at 1.0, home made 15% nic at VG 92% and 8% Normal Saline. Good, bad, indifferent? I don't know but I like it and I left those Marlboro's behind a few years back.

Some times ignorance really is bliss or, at least a non-smoker.

 

[cigatron]

Yeah... They can that the Leidenfrost Point.

I think for Water, the Leidenfrost Point can occur as low as 380F. So there is roughly a 168F Temperature Differential of Boiling Point to the Leidenfrost Point. But many factors influence the Leidenfrost Point. And I believe it is usually Higher (upper 400's ?) for Water and a Steel Alloy.

Leidenfrost effect | Engineers Edge | www.engineersedge.com

Also, this is worth Noting....

"For example, for saturated water-copper interface, the Leidenfrost temperature is 257 °C (495 °F). The Leidenfrost temperatures for glycerol and common alcohols are significantly smaller due to their lower surface tension values (density and viscosity differences are also contributing factors.)"

Leidenfrost effect - Wikipedia

Now that's interesting.

 

[Rossum]

I am glad that I didn't see any of this when I started, I'd still be on Marlboro's running away like the ignorant fool that I am. A REO, an RM2 at 1.0, home made 15% nic at VG 92% and 8% Normal Saline. Good, bad, indifferent? I don't know but I like it and I left those Marlboro's behind a few years back.

Not far from where I am. I do use 30-35% PG, but no water, and my single coils tend to around 0.75Ω. With duals, I'll go as low as 0.5Ω. I'm not changing. I did use TC extensively for over a year, starting when the DNA40 introduced the concept, until late 2015. I don't find it compelling enough to put up with the exotic wire materials required. I don't like nickel at all (and it doesn't like me). Titanium is better, but it's still a hassle to work with and clean. 316 SS has nickel in it. 430 SS is godawful springy.

IMO, if the heat flux in your coils is kept moderate, your wicking is good, and you keep your wick wet, temperature control is redundant. Some people may need or want that redundancy, but I'll live without it to get the simplicity and reliability of a mechanical mod.

 

[CMD-Ky]

Not far from where I am. I do use 30-35% PG, but no water, and my single coils tend to around 0.75Ω. With duals, I'll go as low as 0.5Ω. I'm not changing. I did use TC extensively for over a year, starting when the DNA40 introduced the concept, until late 2015. I don't find it compelling enough to put up with the exotic wire materials required. I don't like nickel at all (and it doesn't like me). Titanium is better, but it's still a hassle to work with and clean. 316 SS has nickel in it. 430 SS is godawful springy.

IMO, if the heat flux in your coils is kept moderate, your wicking is good, and you keep your wick wet, temperature control is redundant. Some people may need or want that redundancy, but I'll live without it to get the simplicity and reliability of a mechanical mod.

If I really want to walk on the wild side of life and build something really radical, I use the heat flux scale of Steam Engine as my guide. I always leave the Volts at 9 and use the result as a relative rather than absolute guide to keep my perception of vape temp near what I like. I like to think of this as being always wrong but always consistently wrong, it's almost like being always right.


And two thumbs up to not changing, reminiscent of your days as a "Surly Curmudgeon".

 

[Domejunky]

Not a scientist, but I have and all that tells us is coil temp. It doesnt tell us juice temp, and the assumption is that the coil gets hotter than the juice.

Have you thought about something like a Trinity glass cap for an atomiser? Or something like the Siren 25 GTA?

 

[Eskie]

I am glad that I didn't see any of this when I started, I'd still be on Marlboro's running away like the ignorant fool that I am. A REO, an RM2 at 1.0, home made 15% nic at VG 92% and 8% Normal Saline. Good, bad, indifferent? I don't know but I like it and I left those Marlboro's behind a few years back.

Some times ignorance really is bliss or, at least a non-smoker.

Well, worst case, it's worse than cigarettes. As we're mostly ex-smokers, it's not like we weren't polluting our lungs for decades before we picked up vaping. And with vaping, lots of us taste things better, no longer have morning coughs, and no longer smell like an ashtray. So at least that's all good. But we have other data, and in people not an experimental SS tube in some furnace (not tons, but some) showing lower measurable nasties in vapers, and evidence of improvements in stuff like exacerbations of COPD.

As I've said before, These new data are nowhere near enough to make me reconsider how I vape. I will keep a lookout for more data that might well include tests comparing temp control to power/wattage and happily participate in another 70 page thread about it.

 

[homeuser6]

like a wreck on the highway, i'm trying not to look

 

[CMD-Ky]

like a wreck on the highway, i'm trying not to look

I'm looking but am not sure what I have seen.

 

[RCP1991]

Perhaps I'm way off but even if someone was to inhale higher amounts of formaldehyde using their vaporizer, it would seem that would still be preferable to inhaling the enormous amounts of other carcinogens in a cigarette.

 

[CMD-Ky]

Perhaps I'm way off but even if someone was to inhale higher amounts of formaldehyde using their vaporizer, it would seem that would still be preferable to inhaling the enormous amounts of other carcinogens in a cigarette.

That's sort of how I'm looking at it. Overall, I see vaping as the reduction not the elimination of risk.

 

[awsum140]

An anecdotal FWIW comment regarding the "hot" or "dry" hit being a significant indicator of potential problems.

It's about 25 outside today, say 70 inside. My mod for walking the dog is an Invader Mini with an FEV V3 on it and an NI200 coil. It vapes well, TC seems to work well, shock proof, water proof and the FEV is all stainless, tank and all. My most "bullet proof" mod by far. I think the tank being all stainless is a key factor for this observation.

The mod/FEV work very nicely inside and outside. As a result of this thread I have lowered the temp to 380F from 440F. It still has lots of vapor and good flavor, plus probably extends battery life under "normal" temperature conditions. At the beginning of my walk everything was fine. By the third hit, the vapor was noticeably cooler. By then end of the walk it was really kind of bland. Of course the mod and FEV had dropped to the ambient air temperature. At one point I was holding the mod on my downwind side and in the sun, trying to get it to warm up a bit. I believe that liquid supply was still good, despite the cold, since I saw no signs of temperature protection which could also be a result of the cold ambient temperature.

I attribute this to the cooling effect of the vapor inside the atomizer as it makes its' way up the chimney and out the drip tip, which is also stainless. If a temperature change of about 40 degrees can make that much difference in the vape, I'd guess, SWAG, that significant cooling is already happening inside the atomizer during normal vaping without that kind of temperature change. If it wasn't, how could we be vaping steam, or vapor, that's happening with at least a temperature of 210F about an inch from our mouths? Further, if it was that noticeable to me during this walk, what does that say about the actual temperature at the coil/wick/vapor production point can actually be even under "normal" circumstances?

I know that the vape temperature is a result of ambient air mixing with the heated vapor and that output temperature will be, strongly related, to the ambient temperature. On the other hand the overall change from the start to the end of that walk, say about twenty minutes, was very noticeable from a "user" perspective and, undoubtedly, caused by the FEV dropping down to about 25F.

Has there ever been a study, or does anyone have any idea, what the internal temperatures are inside an atomizer? That, to me, will be the most critical piece of the puzzle. If I had the skills, tools and equipment I wouldn't hesitate a second to find out. Given this little observation I think we can add "ambient environment temperature" to the list of variables that need to be included.

 

[Steamer861]

Titanium is better, but it's still a hassle to work with and clean.

Disagree! Titanium for me is as easy as it Gets! Most titanium wire is springy & hard to deal with if not torched, But you can get soft round titanium wire like I use.
Cleaning is a breeze I use a screw to wrap my coils, I just simply wind the screw back in removing all most all the junk & brush the outside of the coil with a small brush. all most as easy as a dry burn

 

[Rossum]

Well, worst case, it's worse than cigarettes

Worst case, with respect to a very small number of substances, perhaps. But compared to the overall witch's brew that is tobacco smoke? I don't think so.