New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers

[David Wolf]

I agree, however different devices will cool the vapor leaving the coil at different rates depending on too many variables, so I don't feel that vapor temp at the drip tip will tell us what we want to know.
Bottom line is the juice temp can never exceed the coil temp without some sort of catalytic reaction taking place, which I seriously doubt is happening.
What I want to know is: If coil is X temp then juice temp at the coil/wick can reach Y temp.
How hard can that be to measure with a thermocouple while using tc? Airflow wouldn't even matter imo.
In the mean time I'll be vaping at 450°f or less.

I would be careful trusting a TC is at the set temperature without seeing tests if you're buying into the 450 scare, my earlier post showed some off 50 deg and more lol

 

[USMCotaku]

A few points to consider in that study.

From methods:

"ISO 17025 accredited analytical methods were used to evaluate the cigarette samples for select HPHCs in mainstream smoke. Official methods are cited and other, internally validated, methods are briefly described for general understanding. Furthermore, because no standardized methods exist for e-cigarette analysis, the methods used to evaluate the conventional cigarettes were adapted to evaluate the e-cigarette products and the study blanks (room air)"

"Cigarette preparation and machine smoking for conventional cigarettes are described in Health Canada Test Method T-115 (CAN) (1999). Two to three cigarettes were smoked per replicate for conventional cigarettes and 99 puffs were taken from single e-cigarettes for no more than approximately 200 mg of particulates collected per pad. Three to five replicates were tested for each measurement. Prior to analysis, filter pads from cigarette smoke collection were visually inspected for overloading of particulates, as evidenced by brown spotting on the back of the filter pad. To ensure no overloading of particulates for aerosol collection, e-cigarette units were weighed before and after collection to verify that product weight change and filter pad weight change were comparable."

This test was looking at what came out of the e cigs versus regular cigarettes using standards typically used for cigarette testing with puffs from both cigs and ecigs being collected on filter pads. The room air study blanks are just that, study blanks:

"Air blanks were prepared by puffing room air (99 puffs) through an empty smoking machine port to the indicated trapping media for an analysis method."

The test was not looking for contaminants in room air for either product (cigs or e cigs) but a reference to say "hey, there's as much of this stuff in plain air so it couldn't have come from the cig/e cig". That's an appropriate control in a study such as this.

The study did reveal very low levels of aldehyde production with e cigs, and at about the same level as found in plain room air (study blanks). That looks great for the e cigs tested, Blu, and Skycig.

Unfortunately, many here don't use cigalikes anymore. There is no indication what the temperature was the cigalike contents were heated to in order to generate a vapor, so it cannot be compared to the Wang study looking at the effect of temperature alone on the substances tested, VG and PG (and some juice from wherever).

So that particular study is useful in showing that cigalikes probably produce little if any aldehydes like formaldehyde (Yay for Blu!) it isn't helpful for either current generation vape gear, or have any bearing on the Wang study suggesting temperature breakdown of Vg/PG to aldehydes is possible.

based upon some of the speculation in this thread, the lower wattage, small wire devices were worse then later generation sub ohm set ups....so, should be BETTER

 

[h00ligan]

I tweeted dr farsalinos and his response was exactly along my line of questions.

Here it is - and he's THE authority afai am concerned.

"They did not test any e-cig and e-cigs don't work in the way they performed the tests (reactor chamber)" - @farsalinosk on twitter

Exactly as I suspected. They may as well have microwaved pg/vg and caught the toxins in a condom then diagnosed it as containing spermicide and being radioactive. Without testing actual products these tests are not valid imo - it's just not in compliance with scientific method.

 

[USMCotaku]

I tweeted dr farsalinos and his response was exactly along my line of questions.

Here it is - and he's THE authority afai am concerned.

"They did not test any e-cig and e-cigs don't work in the way they performed the tests (reactor chamber)" - @farsalinosk on twitter

Exactly as I suspected. They may as well have microwaved pg/vg and caught the toxins in a condom then diagnosed it as containing spermicide and being radioactive. Without testing actual products these tests are not valid imo - it's just not in compliance with scientific method.

Exactly what I was sayin

 

[Katya]

"They did not test any e-cig and e-cigs don't work in the way they performed the tests (reactor chamber)" - @farsalinosk on twitter

Ahem... Exactly what I was thinking...

Doesn't mean that temperature doesn't matter--it does. It only means that the good doctor also thinks that the methodology of that study sucks.

Thanks, h00ligan--now I can exhale and maybe get some sleep.

 

[Katya]

You forgot the fish wicks (ceramic)

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

Yeah, those were rather forgettable, just like the vaping donuts (didn't those explode or something?).

But I did omit some big inventions, for the sake of brevity, but it's late and Dr. F has spoken, and you baited me , here goes:

Mik Janty and his eGo (and the mythical Tesla that never materialized)--a true game changer--the first high mAh regulated battery; the Bartleby (and Scottbee's dream mod); BuzzKilla and his Buzz mod (first vv?); Kenb54 and his Big Brother and Little Sister; Cisco and his legendary HH.357 hybrid atomizer; not to mention all the atomizer mods [straw, Lipton teabags, blue foam (fish tank again )]; flashlight mods; syringe mod; staple mod (for connectivity problems); and everyone's all time favorite, the Altoids mod:

Sorry, @mikepetro. This is my last post on the subject.

Thank you, ECF and @Oliver , for giving us a place where we can talk, argue, have fun, and LEARN!

 

[Katdarling]

Yeah, those were rather forgettable, just like the vaping donuts (didn't those explode or something?).

But I did omit some big inventions, for the sake of brevity, but it's late and Dr. F has spoken, and you baited me , here goes:

Mik Janty and his eGo (and the mythical Tesla that never materialized)--a true game changer--the first high mAh regulated battery; the Bartleby (and Scottbee's dream mod); BuzzKilla and his Buzz mod (first vv?); Kenb54 and his Big Brother and Little Sister; Cisco and his legendary HH.357 hybrid atomizer; not to mention all the atomizer mods [straw, Lipton teabags, blue foam (fish tank again )]; flashlight mods; syringe mod; staple mod (for connectivity problems); and everyone's all time favorite, the Altoids mod:

Sorry, @mikepetro. This is my last post on the subject.

Thank you, ECF and @Oliver , for giving us a place where we can talk, argue, have fun, and LEARN!

Thanks for the Dr. F. report/tweet, H00ligan.



If my little eyes weren't fading to close right now, I could prolly post pics of each of those items. (sadly. or gleefully)

Oh hellsbells, Katyaya..... just one.

(look Ma! No bling!)

 

[Katya]

Awww........... kwite prehistoric looking beast.

The way we were, Kat darling...

 

[sofarsogood]

Dr. F says their device is not an ecig so it doesn't prove anything about them. I agree. He would probably agree that lower temperature is better than higher temperature, that less flavoring is better than more flavoring, that fewer daily ml's is better than more, and less watts is better than more watts. You don't always need science. Sometimes common sense works too.

 

[Zakillah]

Without testing actual products these tests are not valid imo - it's just not in compliance with scientific method.

There is no "IMO" here. That's how analytics work (or don't work, respectively)
An EZig is not a beaker filled with liquid heated on a plate. Its also not a metal chamber filled with glass wool.
If you don't have the means to do proper EZig analysis, just don't do it. Its pretty trivial if you think about it.

 

[Steamix]

This shows how impossible it will be for manufactures to prove to the FDA, that their products are 100% safe when used in all combinations of devices, juices, wires etc.
They only have 17 months to do this.
If things don't change soon, only BT cigalikes and a few closed system Pod Mods, may be approved.
The FDAs plan all along....

FDA asking the impossible from vape industry, while letting BT and BP off the hook.

NOTHING is 100% safe.

If it were, the need for ambulances, paramedics, firefighters, emergency wards, etc. would be very greatly reduced.

So let's hope FDA lays off a bit with a hew head honcho. Cuz their regs would kill all that open discussion, all the research that could lead a to better vape.

And while we're at it: Dem researchers ever considered running BT's gadgets through their contraption for measurements ??

 

[Eskie]

I agree, however different devices will cool the vapor leaving the coil at different rates depending on too many variables, so I don't feel that vapor temp at the drip tip will tell us what we want to know.
Bottom line is the juice temp can never exceed the coil temp without some sort of catalytic reaction taking place, which I seriously doubt is happening.
What I want to know is: If coil is X temp then juice temp at the coil/wick can reach Y temp.
How hard can that be to measure with a thermocouple while using tc? Airflow wouldn't even matter imo.
In the mean time I'll be vaping at 450°f or less.

Oh, that statement was not in the context of relying on the temperature of the exiting vapor to determine the production of anything. It was in response to an issue raised about the exhaust temperature from the chamber was. from this quote "....what is the actual temperature of the liquid/vapor? I guarantee we aren't really inhaling 450 degree vapor."

I tweeted dr farsalinos and his response was exactly along my line of questions.

Here it is - and he's THE authority afai am concerned.

"They did not test any e-cig and e-cigs don't work in the way they performed the tests (reactor chamber)" - @farsalinosk on twitter

Exactly as I suspected. They may as well have microwaved pg/vg and caught the toxins in a condom then diagnosed it as containing spermicide and being radioactive. Without testing actual products these tests are not valid imo - it's just not in compliance with scientific method.

We know they didn't test any e cig. We also know we don't vape the way that test was conducted. They stated that right up front in the study. What they did say was VG can break down to formaldehyde when heated to a temperature of 470F and higher (well a small bit below 470F but that seems to be the primary inflection point). There is nothing inaccurate in their finding that I could see that would make me doubt that result in the test setting applied.

The problem isn't that study. The problem is Evolv using that study to suggest by indirect means that the study supports the need for temp control or else. If Evolv used the chamber temperatures and reproduced the same release of aldehydes from actual tanks with actual coils powered by actual TC boards, there would some validity to their position. They did not do that. That test needs to be done. Anything else is pure speculation.

Dr. F's tweet is factually correct. It also stated by the authors this was not an e cig. However, that factual statement does not refute the results. The question remains does contemporary vape gear produce aldehydes at significant levels with higher temperature use that vapers might reach? If so, at what temps in vape gear, and are they the same as in this study? And if true, is temp control required to prevent that or are other strategies just as effective?

 

[Zakillah]

Proof of harmlessness is scientifically impossible. Its ridiculous how those who oppose EZigs get away with that rubbish argument again and again.
"We" don't need to prove that EZigs are harmless (because its impossible), they need to prove that they are harmful.

I have been waiting a couple of years for that now...

 

[mikepetro]

I would be careful trusting a TC is at the set temperature without seeing tests if you're buying into the 450 scare, my earlier post showed some off 50 deg and more lol

Even if it were off, the delta between coil and wick would be interesting.

 

[mikepetro]

Yeah, those were rather forgettable, just like the vaping donuts (didn't those explode or something?).

But I did omit some big inventions, for the sake of brevity, but it's late and Dr. F has spoken, and you baited me , here goes:

Mik Janty and his eGo (and the mythical Tesla that never materialized)--a true game changer--the first high mAh regulated battery; the Bartleby (and Scottbee's dream mod); BuzzKilla and his Buzz mod (first vv?); Kenb54 and his Big Brother and Little Sister; Cisco and his legendary HH.357 hybrid atomizer; not to mention all the atomizer mods [straw, Lipton teabags, blue foam (fish tank again )]; flashlight mods; syringe mod; staple mod (for connectivity problems); and everyone's all time favorite, the Altoids mod:

Sorry, @mikepetro. This is my last post on the subject.

Thank you, ECF and @Oliver , for giving us a place where we can talk, argue, have fun, and LEARN!

Then came the Clone Wars......

 

[kates]

The aldehyde question is nothing new - the Wang study didn't show this - we already knew this. Dr F says here:
'A large number of studies have shown that aldehydes are formed due to thermal degradation of the main ingredients of e-liquids, namely propylene glycol and glycerol. Even more importantly, John Lauterbach reported in a 2015 conference that radiolabeled aldehydes were found in the aerosol of e-liquids containing radiolabeled PG and VG (abstract 188). This is definite proof that, at least part of, aldehydes are formed due to thermal degradation of the humectants of e-liquids.'
His 'dry puff phenom.' was a result of this info back in early 2015 (vapers will not continue to vape at levels this is produced, it will be too unpleasant). All Wang did is give a temperature this degradation happened in non vaping (and very specific)conditions.
Do we have any evidence the 'dry puff' is not applicable to vaping outside the parameters of studies done in 2015 - not as far as I can see. I.e. does 'dry puff' apply across the board? - I don't know, but it does apply to the ecigs which were commonly used during the 2015 testing (simply stated - avoid dry hits).
Should more vaping-specific research be done regarding this - I would think so - as usage, types of vaping, levels of wattage change it makes sense to me (but I'm not a scientist - it might not be necessary as it might already be very clear that 'dry puff' applies to all current equipment too).
I know, so much for final post

 

[Opinionated]

This was real data reported back off of real users who installed the ECIGSTATS program that reported all the data back to Evolv. So this is real life data. This particular graph just showed samples at 10W (typical of a tootle puffer), but they have real life data

Its all about temperature!

Forgive my complete and utter sarcasm here, but "News flash! Maker of temperature control chips does research and declares temperature control is the safest method for vaping, the rest will kill you dead!" rofl.. it just isn't something I'm planning on taking any stock in.. big tobacco did all manner of research saying how safe smoking was too.. lol.. Evolv just wants to sell their stuff, imho, and I don't (and will never) put any stock in research beneficial to the manufacturer who did the "study".

Here is what I know for a FACT: after smoking for 32 years I couldn't breath, and getting to the mailbox was trying for my lungs, my blood pressure was up and smoking was slowing/preventing proper blood flow to the lowest parts of my spine, and it was making my disease (CRPS type 2) even more painful than it should be. Check that with, after quitting smoking and taking up vaping, within one month of a CE4 and little bitty ego battery I could breath again, later, I found a vaping experience more to my liking, after trying many things. My pain level decreased, my ability to breathe continued to improve, my blood pressure dropped and I am healthier in general. For me, nothing else matters. For MOST vapers, nothing else matters. We were dead anyway.

Research is only important for people who never smoked, who aren't under a complete and total death sentence from big tobacco.. and for them, ONLY independent and unbiased research matters. Evolv taking a page from BT's playbook doesn't endear me to their company, to be honest. It makes me trust them less.

Peace.

 

[Verb]

I agree, however different devices will cool the vapor leaving the coil at different rates depending on too many variables, so I don't feel that vapor temp at the drip tip will tell us what we want to know.
Bottom line is the juice temp can never exceed the coil temp without some sort of catalytic reaction taking place, which I seriously doubt is happening.
What I want to know is: If coil is X temp then juice temp at the coil/wick can reach Y temp.
How hard can that be to measure with a thermocouple while using tc? Airflow wouldn't even matter imo.
In the mean time I'll be vaping at 450°f or less.

Air flow means a lot. If the region surrounding the coil is saturated with eliquid molecules it's more difficult, will require more heat, to get molecules in the wick to become vapor.

The very low airflow, 200ml/min, is one of the biggest problems with the SS heating chamber experiment.

 

[KenD]

I tweeted dr farsalinos and his response was exactly along my line of questions.

Here it is - and he's THE authority afai am concerned.

"They did not test any e-cig and e-cigs don't work in the way they performed the tests (reactor chamber)" - @farsalinosk on twitter

Exactly as I suspected. They may as well have microwaved pg/vg and caught the toxins in a condom then diagnosed it as containing spermicide and being radioactive. Without testing actual products these tests are not valid imo - it's just not in compliance with scientific method.

Not disagreeing with Dr Farsalinos in any way, but it's dangerous for us to see him as the absolute authority on any- and everything vaping-related. Seemingly for no other reason that we like to agree with him. And he's a cardiologist, not an expert on everything.

Sent from my K6000 Pro using Tapatalk

 

[DaveP]

My new Pico came in today. With everything else I'm dealing with right now, I just put it in the box with my back-up mods. I have no idea which SS wire to order for this thing or how to wrap coils for it. Just now, I don't care. But I will eventually (in years?!)

It's cute, though!

I'm vaping a 10 wrap 2.5mm SS316L coil (.88 ohms on the display) in my Pico in temp mode and it's fine. For SS316L wire use M1 in the TC setup. Click the fire button 4 times while in TC mode to set the wattage to whatever works best for you. Mine is set at 10 watts since I'm a Tootle Puffer who just wants a cig like vape.

It's about the same vape as 10 watts in power mode. I use Temco wire that I buy from Amazon. 250' coil comes on a spool and will last for years. 250 ft in 28 gauge for $8.00.

https://www.amazon.com/TEMCo-Stainl...&keywords=temco+stainless+steel+wire+28+gauge