New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers
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Mike did these temperature measurements while actually vaping -- no simulations.
By doing so, he's shown that coils can easily reach the temperatures at which bad things could be produced, because bad things are produced in Wang's reactor at those temperatures.
However, Mike has made no claims that bad things are produced in harmful concentrations when actually vaping with coils at those temperatures.
All he's suggested is that if someone wants to be sure that bad things are not produced, they should use an accurate TC mod to keep the coil temperatures as low as possible, preferably not much over 400°F.
So the title of this thread isn't scaremongering?
I think a second hand vaping study tells us a lot.
It tells us that the air in a small unventialted room chock full of people vaping had the same background level of Formaldehyde as is normally found in air indoors or outdoors.
The formaldehyde was measured in ppb. That is parts per billion.
If the vapor had formaldehyde in it, it would have shown up in the test.
Now, either these people somehow managed to absorb all of the excess formaldehyde into their bodies, or there was no formaldehyde being produced by their vaporizers.
I said it before and I'll say it again: I admire your enthusiasm and the effort you are putting into this, and I'm sure your intentions are good.
Unfortunately, it looks as though there are quite a few people here that now believe that they are potentially giving themselves cancer by vaping, when that is demonstrably not the case.
This is junk science.
Good lord man, get off the high horse. I'm not sure if you are aware but you are exhibiting serious contempt for many fellow readers here by insinuating they lack the necessary intelligence to discern what is being discussed and take from it what, if anything, that may be appropriate for them, I applaud what Mike is doing, and the many and various tangents it has fostered, but will keep my own counsel on how to apply it to my needs.
As my dear old granddad was fond of saying, "you're stopped by what you know".
Just because information isnt favorable, doesnt mean it should not be discussed.
If anyone "believes" they are giving themselves cancer, due to the information in this thread, then they have misinterpreted the information that has been presented. The harm reduction principle of lowering vape temperatures has been put in perspective countless times within this thread.
Interpolating an air study as being representative of 1st hand vapor is what I would call "Junk Science". Thats like measuring the air in your city and interpolating a zero result as meaning there is not a high level of Radon in your home.
That analogy makes no sense whatsoever.
Please humor me and explain how, if vaporizers are pumping out a bunch of Formaldehyde, how would that not show up in the air in the room into which that vapor is exhaled?
Where is all this formaldehyde ending up?
Is it magic formaldehyde?
Bear in mind also the numerous other tests of first hand vapor, and the blood tests performed on people while they were vaping, none of which found any detectable formaldehyde.
It is because there is no formaldehyde.
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Let's turn that on its head: what about if someone isn't all that smart?
Actually, forget that. What about if they are plenty smart, but just don't have enough background in the sciences to spot the difference between a very thorough and well intentioned set of experiments and real science.
Do they deserve to have the shinola scared out of them, or perhaps go back to smoking because they can't spot the difference between proper scientific method and mumbo jumbo?
If I don't lock resistance before I use a differently set mod to do a "cotton browning test" I have to blow out the burning cotton and rewick it before locking the resistance and trying again DAMHIK
Yup. Need to lock the resistance. I don't get the rattlesnake effect on my 350j V1s.
I sorta remember that from trying TC with Crown coils on my old IPV3li OUAT
I think one point that keeps getting set aside is what's been already stated multiple times.
If I heat something at 1,000 degrees (metal plate) and drop water on it, that water isn't going to ever be 1,000 degrees *unless you force a pressurized environment). It will absorb the energy that it "needs" to vaporize and go on it's merry way.
The more water, the more energy absorbed and the more water circulates.
This energy absorbed is from the heat, and hence the metal plate cools down.
So that the coil gets way above the safe" temperature range doesn't really matter as the liquid that hits that phase of dissipation will have moved away already, replaced by the flow from the wicking.
I don't need a thousand tests to prove this, I don't even need one, it's happening, plain and simple.
Again, the TC settings are a setting that is based in the changes in resistance and not actual temperature, something that some don't appear to wrap their heads around.
If I was to test the temperature of the vapor, depending on the coil/build/device (tank/deck) and it's airflow, I could have it set for 280F for one build, and to get the exact same vapor temperature with another build, I might have it set at 500F. The vapor will be the same, and so will the resulting coil temperature (against the vapor's production)... it's a question of the resistance curve that controls this. If I put in the wrong TCR setting for a metal, I might find that I have to put my settings at 200F, when the actual temperature would still be the same as if I had the right settings and would get the same experience and vapor at 320F.
This is why the numbers on any settings for any mod is up to interpretation and just a setting, nothing more.
You aren't setting your mod at a temperature, you are setting a cut-off/max temperature of the vapor, and it's nowhere near what the setting is stating, as you are setting a max level of a resistance curve.
If I heat something at 1,000 degrees (metal plate) and drop water on it, that water isn't going to ever be 1,000 degrees *unless you force a pressurized environment). It will absorb the energy that it "needs" to vaporize and go on it's merry way.
The more water, the more energy absorbed and the more water circulates.
This energy absorbed is from the heat, and hence the metal plate cools down.
So that the coil gets way above the safe" temperature range doesn't really matter as the liquid that hits that phase of dissipation will have moved away already, replaced by the flow from the wicking.
I don't need a thousand tests to prove this, I don't even need one, it's happening, plain and simple.
Again, the TC settings are a setting that is based in the changes in resistance and not actual temperature, something that some don't appear to wrap their heads around.
If I was to test the temperature of the vapor, depending on the coil/build/device (tank/deck) and it's airflow, I could have it set for 280F for one build, and to get the exact same vapor temperature with another build, I might have it set at 500F. The vapor will be the same, and so will the resulting coil temperature (against the vapor's production)... it's a question of the resistance curve that controls this. If I put in the wrong TCR setting for a metal, I might find that I have to put my settings at 200F, when the actual temperature would still be the same as if I had the right settings and would get the same experience and vapor at 320F.
This is why the numbers on any settings for any mod is up to interpretation and just a setting, nothing more.
You aren't setting your mod at a temperature, you are setting a cut-off/max temperature of the vapor, and it's nowhere near what the setting is stating, as you are setting a max level of a resistance curve.
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All I did with my testing was show accurate temperatures of a coil in use under real vaping conditions. I never claimed my tests demonstrated anything more than that.
I got tired of hearing all of the half backed notions like "the coil surface never gets over 100F", or "a coil will never get that hot with air flow", or "at 500F you must be doing dry hits", or "nobody would ever vape at 500f, they would get sick first", etc.. etc.. all of which are real quotes from within this thread. All of which I proved were erroneous.
Since it is within my skillset to measure process temperatures accurately (its what I do for a living) I chose to test and publish factual results. How is that "mumbo jumbo"?
I challenge anyone to show me more thorough testing of atty temperatures here on ECF. For that matter, I have never seen this data, under actual vaping conditions, published anywhere else publicly.
I got tired of hearing all of the half backed notions like "the coil surface never gets over 100F", or "a coil will never get that hot with air flow", or "at 500F you must be doing dry hits", or "nobody would ever vape at 500f, they would get sick first", etc.. etc.. all of which are real quotes from within this thread. All of which I proved were erroneous.
Since it is within my skillset to measure process temperatures accurately (its what I do for a living) I chose to test and publish factual results. How is that "mumbo jumbo"?
I challenge anyone to show me more thorough testing of atty temperatures here on ECF. For that matter, I have never seen this data, under actual vaping conditions, published anywhere else publicly.
The interpolation between the two is junk science, pure and simple. One does not necessitate the other.
And simply saying "its never been found before" doesnt prove it doesnt exist. New discoveries are made in science every day, things that were never known to exist until someone figured out a way to prove it.
No, you just heavily implied it by naming the thread "New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers".
So you're going with the 'magic formaldehyde hypothesis' then.
I dont buy it until someone proves it to me. When I see a 408F boiling point liquid (50/50 P/VG) at a rolling boil on the surface of coil I feel pretty confident that liquid was actually 408f.
Thats why I proved coil temperatures with actual temperature readings, I didnt rely on interpolated resistance.
I set mine by interpolated temperature, of which the calibration is shown below:
- DNA set at 300, Thermocouple measured 307
- DNA set at 350, Thermocouple measured 349
- DNA set at 400, Thermocouple measured 393
- DNA set at 450, Thermocouple measured 442
- DNA set at 500, Thermocouple measured 485
I believe that Wang measured formaldehyde at the temperatures stated in the study. It was a peer reviewed study, and as of yet, nobody has contradicted it with anything more than just conjecture.
Now, if he measured it there, it seems perfectly plausible that it can exist anywhere that vg is heated to those temperature.
I didn't say it wasn't factual, although that is debatable.
Following it up with a series of temperature measurements is implying that the results of this experiment also apply to vaporizers.
The reason that the thread title isn't factual (and is also scaremongering) is the 'even in tootlepuffers' part.
Tootlepuffers use vaporizers.
These experiments were performed on some contraption that the experimentors call a 'reactor' which appears to bear no resemblance to a vaporizer.
Since it doesnt state what temps the formaldehyde was detected at, I dont think it proves much.
"At low voltage (3.3 V), we did not detect the formation of any formaldehyde-releasing agents (estimated limit of detection, approximately 0.1 μg per 10 puffs). At high voltage (5.0 V), a mean (±SE) of 380±90 μg per sample (10 puffs) of formaldehyde was detected as formaldehyde-releasing agents."
Also, it is highly suspect that 5v was a realistic setting. Hard to tell because they dont specify the equipment. Very suspect though. For example, at 505f I could taste "bad", did their tests allow the attys to get that hot?
Conjecture: Wang's 'reactor' does the same thing as a vaporizer.
Conjecture: e liquid reaches the same temperature as the coil that is heating it.
Conjecture: if he measured it there, it seems perfectly plausible that it can exist anywhere that vg is heated to those temperatures.
My objections aren't based on conjecture, but on all the other studies that looked for formaldehyde and found none.
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