New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers

[mikepetro]

I can't correlate the results at six watts in these Vivi Nova tests with Dr Kurt's CE4 conclusions, as Kurt indicates that even at those lower levels of power and temp, emissions are dangerously high. Do CE4's just get hotter at the same resistance/power settings? Is 400F actually too high to keep the nasties at safe levels? I can't effectively compare specific circumstances Kurt used to draw those conclusions with the power/temp results we see in these tests.

Be it right, wrong, or indifferent, here is the protocol the Dr Kurt used.
(Link to entire presentation)

Kurt A. Kistler, PhD
Department of Chemistry
Penn State Brandywine, Media, PA
Subject Matter Expert, AEMSA


Present at:
National Academies of the Sciences, Washington, DC
February 21, 2017

A quote from an ECF post regarding the study he did:

We used only one liquid formulation: about 50:50 PG:VG with 1.2% nicotine. We did this to compare directly with the early-2015 studies that used this formulation, but pushed the power of their CE4 devices beyond what a normal vaper would use or even tolerate. We all knew this was true, and there have been many valid criticisms those studies, as well as how the media covered them, but published peer-reviewed data was greatly needed to truly provide a more complete picture. That said, our results on a CE4 device were not good either, at any power setting. We did not measure for propionaldehyde, but acknowledged that it could be present with the other three aldehydes.

The actual peer reviewed study: Effect of variable power levels on the yield of total aerosol mass and formation of aldehydes in e-cigarette aerosols

Also, he was using 2.8ohm stock coils in his study.

 

[mikepetro]

First, let me emphasise that Dr Kurt is a highly qualified PhD at a well known University. He vapes himself, and has been a very long term contributor here on ECF. Just search for @Kurt and you will find volumes of useful information, particularly on nicotine quality and storage. He is the one who "outed" Box Elder for distributing 272mg nic advertised as 100mg, which in turned prompted the community to demand better testing/reporting from the manufacturers (thanks to folks like Kurt, we didnt need no damn FDA).


Some other interesting excerpts from that presentation:


The whole Diacetyl thing. This has been largely solved through community demand to the manufacturers. And NO we did not need the help of the FDA to solve it.

OK, so he has proven that Gen 2 devices are poor choices and that they generate "nasties" at any power level. He has also demonstrated that Gen 3 devices are a much better choice.

The one problem I have is that throughout this presentation he claims that Gen 2 devices are no longer popular. I have to disagree on this point. I see them in use all the time, both out in the wild, and being sold en masse at vape shops. These things are STILL an issue!!!!

Yes, an educated user can avoid many of the pitfalls, but how many noobs (who are not educated) are still being exposed to these things. How many Vape Shops push them to the guy walking in off the street? How many folks reading this thread are still using them, even though they generate more formaldehyde than smoking cigarettes?

I know of lots of folks who still use Evods and original Protanks! High wattage does NOT necessarily equate to dry-hits, but does likely equate to high temps. And high temp does NOT equal "devil's ...." taste. I have personally vaped unflavored at 500F and it did NOT taste bad. Flavorings can mask the taste at high temps as well.

Thermal decomposition of PG and VG is what the whole Wang Study is about. Folks, I firmly believe there is "something" to this! Dont let some improperly conducted studies (i.e. sampling dry hits) taint the notion that "something" is going on here. A few poorly done studies does not mean that the phenomena does exist at some level. I have no clue what the true level really is, given our varied usage patterns, but there is "something" there. Just like CE4s were replaced by safer tech, we need to ensure our future tech minimizes this hazard. I personally believe TC is a move in that direction

Just because you think you are a tootle level vaper does NOT mean that you cant be exposed to some of these hazards!

We all gladly accept the risks because we know they are far less than smoking tobacco. However, "Informed" vaping is a good thing......

I mean, honestly, isnt safer...better, as long we can keep the nico-demon off our azz?

 

[mikepetro]

And now, here is some GOOD news about the flavorings we use.

http://www.bat-science.com/groupms/...e/DO9UQDZ8/$FILE/SRNT_2015_PD.pdf?openelement

 

[mikepetro]

Here is one of the very few studies I have found that actually measures and takes coil temp into consideration.

Correlation of volatile carbonyl yields emitted by e-cigarettes with the temperature of the heating coil and the perceived sensorial quality of the generated vapours

I disagree with the "open burn" testing methodology, too many variables like airflow and chamber design are being missed. But at least they are attempting to measure temp.

Conjecture on my part, but this sort of correlates to the Wang Study:

The formation of carbonyls which are known to be harmful when inhaled at sufficient concentrations, such as formaldehyde and acetaldehyde, occurred even at relatively low wattages/temperatures.

5w for a Gen 2 is a reasonable assumption:

When considering concentrations in each inhaled puff, the short-term indoor air guideline value for formaldehyde was already exceeded at the lowest wattage of 5 W, which is the wattage applied in most 2nd generation e-cigarettes.

Valid point:

Although this study shows that vapers self-limit themselves and that it is unlikely that they choose wattages which lead to very high carbonyl emissions

I would love to know MORE about this:

Since the formation of carbonyls is caused by the formation of radicals (hydroxyl radicals) which are responsible for the oxidation and fragmentation of the glycols, a potentially effective way to reduce their formation could be to add radical scavengers, such as antioxidants (e.g. BHA, BHT, ascorbic acid) or spin-traps to the e-liquids.

And herein lies the challenge:

vapers seem to change the way in which they vape depending on the model of e-cigarette. The current study addressed this challenge and highlights the importance to develop reference methods simulating conditions which are as realistic as possible to avoid the over or underestimation of the concentration of toxicants produced. The wide variety of products available on the market and the high level of customization with varying design, type of heating elements, pressure drop, batteries and the huge choice of available e-liquids, make the development of such methods and the associated standardised testing-conditions particularly challenging.

 

[Mazinny]

And now, here is some GOOD new about the flavorings we use.

http://www.bat-science.com/groupms/...e/DO9UQDZ8/$FILE/SRNT_2015_PD.pdf?openelement

View attachment 660711

-

- Interesting that Kurt has been saying for years that he thinks flavor molecules are probably safer than natural extracts and this one experiment at least seems to indicate that there might be something to that

- How does a cig-a-like puffed at " normal conditions " compare to what most of us are doing ? How hot does a cig-a-like coil get when puffed for three seconds at 30 second intervals ?

 

[mikepetro]

This is an honest question, do many people vape a 1.6ohm coil at 20w+?

 

[Mazinny]

This is an honest question, do many people vape a 1.6ohm coil at 25w+?

View attachment 660715

All 1.6 ohm coils are not the same. I'm pretty sure a 32g 1.6 ohm coil gets a lot hotter than a 28g 1.6 ohm coil

Where is this graph from ? What was the device and coil ?

 

[mikepetro]

All 1.6 ohm coils are not the same. I'm pretty sure a 32g 1.6 ohm coil gets a lot hotter than a 28g 1.6 ohm coil

Where is this graph from ? What was the device and coil ?

"The type of electronic cigarette used in this study was a third-generation product (“Mods”) composed of two separately purchased components: the battery and the atomizer. The battery was a 2200 mAh battery (Eleaf, ISTICK, 30W, Ismoka, China) providing a variable output voltage/wattage range of 2–8 V/5–30 W. The atomizer was a Kayfun 3.1 (EHPRO, China) re-buildable bottom coil atomizer with an adjustable airflow. The amount of airflow going to the coil was kept constant at 50% aperture for all the measurements. The transparent tank had a capacity of approximately 4.5 mL. Throughout all of the measurement a 11 cm long Nichrome 80 type (0.3 mm diameter) wire was used to wrap the coil (11 wraps). The resistance of this coil corresponded to approximately 1.6 Ohm. The e-liquid was transferred to the coil via a cotton-wick."

ETA, graph and info are all in the study I linked above.
Correlation of volatile carbonyl yields emitted by e-cigarettes with the temperature of the heating coil and the perceived sensorial quality of the generated vapours

 

[Eskie]

The one problem I have is that throughout this presentation he claims that Gen 2 devices are no longer popular. I have to disagree on this point. I see them in use all the time, both out in the wild, and being sold en masse at vape shops. These things are STILL an issue!!!!

Yes, an educated user can avoid many of the pitfalls, but how many noobs (who are not educated) are still being exposed to these things. How many Vape Shops push them to the guy walking in off the street? How many folks reading this thread are still using them, even though they generate more formaldehyde than smoking cigarettes?

I know of lots of folks who still use Evods and original Protanks! High wattage does NOT necessarily equate to dry-hits, but does likely equate to high temps. And high temp does NOT equal "devil's ...." taste. I have personally vaped unflavored at 500F and it did NOT taste bad.

I mean, honestly, isnt safer...better, as long we can keep the nico-demon off our azz?[/SIZE]

Mike, playing devils advocate, the fact that vape shops and online sources still sell older generation products which may represent increased risk to the user. It's hard to say the community is enough to manage risk, but only among educated vapers, new users by your own report are still walking around with them.

That lends support to the argument that regulations are necessary for assuring only "safer" products are offered for sale rather than leave older generation products on the market to be bought by the new first time vaper.

No, I'm not saying I support the craziness currently in effect, but this is exactly what can be presented to regulators in support of their intervention in this industry.

 

[Mazinny]

"The type of electronic cigarette used in this study was a third-generation product (“Mods”) composed of two separately purchased components: the battery and the atomizer. The battery was a 2200 mAh battery (Eleaf, ISTICK, 30W, Ismoka, China) providing a variable output voltage/wattage range of 2–8 V/5–30 W. The atomizer was a Kayfun 3.1 (EHPRO, China) re-buildable bottom coil atomizer with an adjustable airflow. The amount of airflow going to the coil was kept constant at 50% aperture for all the measurements. The transparent tank had a capacity of approximately 4.5 mL. Throughout all of the measurement a 11 cm long Nichrome 80 type (0.3 mm diameter) wire was used to wrap the coil (11 wraps). The resistance of this coil corresponded to approximately 1.6 Ohm. The e-liquid was transferred to the coil via a cotton-wick."

ETA, graph and info are all in the study I linked above.
Correlation of volatile carbonyl yields emitted by e-cigarettes with the temperature of the heating coil and the perceived sensorial quality of the generated vapours

11 wraps 3mm i.d. then, any idea what gauge that would be ?

 

[mikepetro]

All 1.6 ohm coils are not the same. I'm pretty sure a 32g 1.6 ohm coil gets a lot hotter than a 28g 1.6 ohm coil

Where is this graph from ? What was the device and coil ?

About 28.5 AWG (0.3 mm diameter)

 

[mikepetro]

Mike, playing devils advocate, the fact that vape shops and online sources still sell older generation products which may represent increased risk to the user. It's hard to say the community is enough to manage risk, but only among educated vapers, new users by your own report are still walking around with them.

That lends support to the argument that regulations are necessary for assuring only "safer" products are offered for sale rather than leave older generation products on the market to be bought by the new first time vaper.

No, I'm not saying I support the craziness currently in effect, but this is exactly what can be presented to regulators in support of their intervention in this industry.

I am not addressing regulation in this thread, just the safety of the devices in use. (with a few snide FDA digs). I do believe "some" regulation would be a good thing, but that is a topic for the other thread, where I already got slammed for saying so.

 

[Eskie]

I am not addressing regulation in this thread, just the safety of the devices in use. (with a few snide FDA digs). I do believe "some" regulation would be a good thing, but that is a topic for the other thread, where I already got slammed for saying so.

Oh, I'm not in any way suggesting you do. And valid, objective data is helpful to all around here, and probably some outside lurkers in the business as well. Nor do I think data be swept under the rug if it isn't completely in support of a given position. This stuff does have to get out there. The issue should be managed by the community identifying potential unnecessary hazards, and if not able to change the marketplace enough, guide regulators to take the minimum necessary steps required to reduce or eliminate that risk.

One bit of data we do not have is what are the temperatures reached in cigalikes, because those are still the predominant e-cig in the marketplace (Mike, no, I'm not suggesting you measure that as well, I'm sure BT will eventually get to it on their own, then sweep it under the rug).

 

[mikepetro]

Another correlation to the Wang Study. "Something" is going on, and this was in an (almost) modern day realistic build. 30W Istick, Kayfun, cotton wick, etc

"Formaldehyde is formed by the oxidation of both of the above glycols although a predominance of glycerol can be observed."

 

[mikepetro]

One bit of data we do not have is what are the temperatures reached in cigalikes, because those are still the predominant e-cig in the marketplace (Mike, no, I'm not suggesting you measure that as well, I'm sure BT will eventually get to it on their own, then sweep it under the rug).

I guarantee they ALREADY have it, and volumes more. It is actually rather frustrating, here I am trying my best to get some real data, and I know beyond doubt it already exists, they just arent willing to share it.

Gotta protect those PMTA requests they are submitting.......

 

[Mazinny]

Mike, playing devils advocate, the fact that vape shops and online sources still sell older generation products which may represent increased risk to the user. It's hard to say the community is enough to manage risk, but only among educated vapers, new users by your own report are still walking around with them.

That lends support to the argument that regulations are necessary for assuring only "safer" products are offered for sale rather than leave older generation products on the market to be bought by the new first time vaper.

No, I'm not saying I support the craziness currently in effect, but this is exactly what can be presented to regulators in support of their intervention in this industry.

I wish we didn't frame the discussion in terms of 1st vs. 2nd vs, 3rd generation devices. I think there should be studies looking at different variables like air flow, juice flow, wire gauge used, horizontal vs. vertical coils, etc...
These factors would be more predictive of coil temperature than simply calling these devices first, second or third generation, especially when there are no clear demarcation lines.

 

[mikepetro]

Another correlation to the Wang Study. "Something" is going on, and this was in an (almost) modern day realistic build. 30W Istick, Kayfun, cotton wick, etc

"Formaldehyde is formed by the oxidation of both of the above glycols although a predominance of glycerol can be observed."

What this does show is that adding DW to your pure VG mixes is a good thing. I think that backs up my whole "boiling point" stance.

 

[Eskie]

I wish we didn't frame the discussion in terms of 1st vs. 2nd vs, 3rd generation devices. I think there should be studies looking at different variables like air flow, juice flow, wire gauge used, horizontal vs. vertical coils, etc...
These factors would be more predictive of coil temperature than simply calling these devices first, second or third generation, especially when there are no clear demarcation lines.

One advantage of lumping stuff together like that is it's easier to give a generic recommendation to the effect of "don't use clearos, get yourself a proper tank instead". Otherwise, every individual piece of hardware will need extensive testing under all those various conditions. This way, you can generalize across a class of products and say "OK, tanks with bottom replaceable coils and adjustable airflow are what folks should use".

 

[mikepetro]

I wish we didn't frame the discussion in terms of 1st vs. 2nd vs, 3rd generation devices. I think there should be studies looking at different variables like air flow, juice flow, wire gauge used, horizontal vs. vertical coils, etc...
These factors would be more predictive of coil temperature than simply calling these devices first, second or third generation, especially when there are no clear demarcation lines.

Agreed.

But how in the world would science be able to measure all of the different combinations at our disposal with open systems?

I think they have to break it down to basic physics, which can be extrapolated to various hardware models. Otherwise we will NEVER know.

Thats the whole reason the FDA is pushing for closed systems. With a closed system you can measure that specific set of variables with a degree of certainty.

 

[Mazinny]

One advantage of lumping stuff together like that is it's easier to give a generic recommendation to the effect of "don't use clearos, get yourself a proper tank instead". Otherwise, every individual piece of hardware will need extensive testing under all those various conditions. This way, you can generalize across a class of products and say "OK, tanks with bottom replaceable coils and adjustable airflow are what folks should use".

Fair enough, .... but nautilus vs. PT, both bottom coil and replaceable, one had significantly lower aldehyde emissions at comparable power ...

Also your example ( bottom coil, replaceable, adjustable air flow ) is a lot more descriptive than simply saying 3rd generation.