New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers

[MoeKeto]

Wow I guess I’m lucky! I’ve had this trance urge to try temp control! I bought SS316L, Ni200 and Ti and tried to work with my Big Baby Beast rba and iJoy Captain PD270 but I failed, so I decided to go big and went out today and bought myself a Therion BF DNA75C and a Pulse 22 and built Ti in it... I have also started temp control and honestly I couldn’t be happier with the flavour. Who knew that my brain was guiding my towards this?!

Thanks so much for posting this info, and for all vapers who don’t use TC, please give it a shot, it’s totally worth it in every way. Flavour and dense cool vapour! It is the best thing that has happened since I started vaping. If you’re worried about the Ti being springy or the Ni200 being tin, please look into SS, it will really be worth your time. I’m new but I wish this had been the first mod and tank I bought before wasting money on other stuff.

Thanks to all the folks who have helped me make this decision.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[mikepetro]

Hi all and @mikepetro.
An interesting new study just out focusing on the results of e-liquid on live cells:
Evaluation of e-liquid toxicity using an open-source high-throughput screening assay

And includes a searchable data base on flavors/ingredients/chemicals:
TCORS E-Liquid Research and Analysis

The study is very extensive, and while I can wrap my head around most info on at least a basic level, I find much of this a bit over my head, and am unable to read further until this weekend.
An earlier study you posted here, I quoted on how investigating flavors was needed, and the 2nd link seems to be a good start on that.

The toxicity shown of PG/VG alone seems concerning.
And grows with flavors and concentration.
Vanillin was shown to be one of the most toxic of the flavorings.

Would love your take - and others here - on the data.
And/or/also if anyone feels/wants to start another thread on this study, have at it.
It would be poorly served by me.

Thanks for this, it will take me a while to wrap my head around this, as a lot is also over my head.

Flavors are a Pandora's Box, of that I am confident. The dose is where the devil is though, and I need to understand the relevance.

 

[ScottP]

Saying vapor contains X, Y, Z chemicals is one thing, but without comparing it to cigarette smoke it is hard to understand the ramifications.

 

[awsum140]

And as usual they focused on power. Wonder what the coil temperature was?

 

[Rossum]

And as usual they focused on power. Wonder what the coil temperature was?

Right. 100 watts of power, with only 70ml drawn over 4 seconds.

 

[awsum140]

I guess it's obvious to those of us who use TC that temperature is actually the critical factor, but you'd think highly educated researchers would see that right out of the box. They all seem to miss it though, or is that ignore it?

Incidentally, Heinlein was way ahead of his time. Better than Clark IMHO. Great SF writer and put in a lot of philosophy without making it obnoxious.

 

[Rossum]

I guess it's obvious to those of us who use TC that temperature is actually the critical factor, but you'd think highly educated researchers would see that right out of the box. They all seem to miss it though, or is that ignore it?

 

[stols001]

Given where the FDA is at, I don't expect to see much temp control data being studied soon in the US. I will note that vanillas make me hoarse, but my understanding is they are also on the diketone list which I avoid many of the "known offenders."

I also find difficulty finding a ton of relevance when all parameters aren't listed and when things are tested at those sorts of wattages though. I vape nowhere near that point, although I would say temp control is going to be best for folks that do, but I think we kind of know that already. The only reason I can see to NOT list the flavoring percentages (they have to know them) is that perhaps a particular outcome was "targeted."

But, I won't be paying much attention to a study where the flavoring could have been at 5%... or 50% as it doesn't seem they're really saying.

Anna

 

[untar]

Given where the FDA is at, I don't expect to see much temp control data being studied soon in the US.

Don't think they gave Evolv $277K for the fun of it, they'll probably use the testrig they bought.

What's often disregarded is that reaching those higher temperatures isn't that easy as long as the liquid feeding/supply isn't overstressed. Most of that energy will go into heating the liquid and not in making the coil glow, similar to a water filled pot on a stove (or red hot coals for that matter).

To get into the unpleasant territory they have to seriously exceed what a build is able to keep up with.

Not saying TC is unnecessary, in fact that's all I use, but wattage mode isn't equivalent to a dry hit and formaldehyde party. Wouldn't the cotton wick also burn at those temperatures so you couldn't vape up there without noticing?

 

[stols001]

I'd agree with the above. IDK if there's any way to obtain "data" using live test subjects vaping the way they normally vape, but sadly, with the "mechanical puff" researchers can (and often do) use vaping parameters that are just weirdly different than real life vaping. The only way to get scary data from such studies (again, just IMHO) is to "vape" them in ways no real life vaper would want to vape, and etc.

I guess if some TC studies (at reasonable "puff parameters") could be interesting. I just wish they would show their work though! Man, I got in trouble if I didn't do that with algebra (mainly because all I "needed" to get a correct answer would be a scrawl or two) so I don't really understand how results can be PUBLISHED without indicating all the variables (like flavor percentages and etc.)

Anna

 

[440BB]

I'm glad we've had the opportunity to see how many of our toppers actually perform, right here in this thread.

All it took was one curious vaper to come up with a practical look at the variables and devote the time and investment to give us real world feedback.

I hope the scientific community catches up.

Thanks Mike!

 

[mikepetro]

Right. 100 watts of power, with only 70ml drawn over 4 seconds.

Agreed, a 70ml draw over 4 seconds is equal to a large MTL hit (50ml is considered an avg MTL volume). I did my testing at ~ 0.75 L/min to simulate a MTL hit, they were just slightly above that.

However, at that wattage, using that atty, I would estimate that most "real world" usage would be DTL puffs. I dont "think" many folks are doing MTL puffs at 100w on a .25ohm dual coil. But that is an assumption, I could be wrong. My personal experiences with a .25ohm dual coil tell me that MTL runs pretty hot past 70w.

DTL hits would be closer to 300+ ml in volume and a much higher flow rate. The increased airflow of DTL definitely cools the coil more, which reduces thermal degradation and the resulting nasties. In other words, if real word usage is DTL then these results are exaggerated.

For their "Puff Model" they used "existing E-cig topography [59–61]" (testing parameters, flowrates, etc) which were copied from the testing methods used for cig-a-likes and Egos back in 2012. That protocol is hardly appropriate for a subohm tank.

And again, what was the temp. 100w doesnt tell us anything about that, other than there was a real possibility they were running hot. Small puff volume = less airflow = less cooling of the coil.

Flavorings should have been quantified, without that how can you draw any conclusion about the resulting effluent.

I dont think that we really can draw any concrete conclusions from this study.

It would be interesting to see what temperature a Crown stainless steel subtank and a 0.25 Ω SUS316 dual coil yields at 100w and a flow rate of 0.84 L/min.

Their database of LC50 values is only really interesting if we know the temperatures they were generated at, but the study does not really address thermal degradation at all. However, these LC50 values would be VERY interesting if they were plotted by temperature for each constituent.

I do think they are looking in the right direction though. I.e. looking at all of the constituents in flavorings. They just dont have the right sampling protocol yet.

 

[Mowgli]

...Incidentally, Heinlein was way ahead of his time. Better than Clark IMHO. Great SF writer and put in a lot of philosophy without making it obnoxious.

"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects." - Robert Heinlein

 

[Justin L]

Just came across this thread, I’m honestly VERY confused, I’ve been vaping for about 2-3 weeks. I’m using a smok procolor (so TC isn’t really a option because the feature just doesn’t work efficiently) I have a big baby beast tank and use X4,Q2 and GT4 coils. I vape using watts usually between 60-90. Is there anyway for me to know if I’m going above 470F?

 

[untar]

Read my post from above, it's unlikely you get good taste and are way out of the safe vaping zone.
You're new so you may not know what it's supposed to taste like or what would be considered "bad", but as long as the vapor isn't hot to your lips or the cotton isn't burning you should be fine.

When searching for the best wattage start from the low end and work your way up until you're satisfied with the warmth and taste of your vapor.

 

[mikepetro]

Just came across this thread, I’m honestly VERY confused, I’ve been vaping for about 2-3 weeks. I’m using a smok procolor (so TC isn’t really a option because the feature just doesn’t work efficiently) I have a big baby beast tank and use X4,Q2 and GT4 coils. I vape using watts usually between 60-90. Is there anyway for me to know if I’m going above 470F?

I dont know about the Q2 or GT4 coils, but the X4 was pretty good in that wattage range, assuming a DTL style of vaping.

Actual Temperatures inside a Smoktech TFV8 Big Baby Beast. | E-Cigarette Forum

 

[Justin L]

I dont know about the Q2 or GT4 coils, but the X4 was pretty good in that wattage range, assuming a DTL style of vaping.

Actual Temperatures inside a Smoktech TFV8 Big Baby Beast. | E-Cigarette Forum

Interesting thanks. Sucks that with every new coil/atomizer/liquid I try while attempting to find my go-to setups/liquid I have to go through all this research I mean I just want to vape and have the security of knowing it’s better than smoking. There is SO many variables to vaping. Defienetly not like going to the gas station and buying a pack of cigs and lighter. Sure I know this is just 1 dangerous chemical found, BUT it took what 9 years? Just to find this. And it’s being “claimed” 10X the amount found in cigarettes that just sucks I thoroughly enjoy vaping, higher watts to I’ve noticed, I get better taste is higher watts personally. Is there a certain tank and coil that I can buy to have a bit more security that it won’t go above the 470F level??

 

[mikepetro]

Interesting thanks. Sucks that with every new coil/atomizer/liquid I try while attempting to find my go-to setups/liquid I have to go through all this research I mean I just want to vape and have the security of knowing it’s better than smoking. There is SO many variables to vaping. Defienetly not like going to the gas station and buying a pack of cigs and lighter. Sure I know this is just 1 dangerous chemical found, BUT it took what 9 years? Just to find this. And it’s being “claimed” 10X the amount found in cigarettes that just sucks I thoroughly enjoy vaping, higher watts to I’ve noticed, I get better taste is higher watts personally. Is there a certain tank and coil that I can buy to have a bit more security that it won’t go above the 470F level??

This is a long thread, so I am sure you havent read the whole thing.
The only 10X situation was from a circumstance that you wouldnt be likely to encounter as it was on older gear, specifically the CE4 generation of attys. You are experimenting with much newer and safer gear. Pretty much anything you try will be tremendously safer than cigarettes. So you can indeed just vape and have the security of knowing it’s better than smoking.

Honestly, I wouldnt even worry about "safest" right now, its ALL safer than smoking. Keep experimenting until you find what satisfies you and keeps you off the stinkies, thats the most important thing. Once you find a sweet spot, you can always tweak for incremental safety later.

 

[Justin L]

This is a long thread, so I am sure you havent read the whole thing.
The only 10X situation was from a circumstance that you wouldnt be likely to encounter as it was on older gear, specifically the CE4 generation of attys. You are experimenting with much newer and safer gear. Pretty much anything you try will be tremendously safer than cigarettes. So you can indeed just vape and have the security of knowing it’s better than smoking.

Honestly, I wouldnt even worry about "safest" right now, its ALL safer than smoking. Keep experimenting until you find what satisfies you and keeps you off the stinkies, thats the most important thing. Once you find a sweet spot, you can always tweak for incremental safety later.

Very true. And I will continue vaping because even after being smoke free for 2 weeks I can feel the difference and changes occurring. Idk like I said just wish it was a bit more simple and definitive. I think that would encourage more current smokers to transition. And by the looks of it the fda are trying hard to ban tasty flavors.

 

[Burnie]

Very true. And I will continue vaping because even after being smoke free for 2 weeks I can feel the difference and changes occurring. Idk like I said just wish it was a bit more simple and definitive. I think that would encourage more current smokers to transition. And by the looks of it the fda are trying hard to ban tasty flavors.

Might want to start learning DIY juice (there is an area on the forum dedicated to it, and a lot of helpful people), and get some nicotine concentrate (100mg/ml), that way, at least you will still be able to make your own juice no mater what the FDA does, and it is worlds less money (after the initial investment). JMHO