Even Boeing is having serious problems with Li-ion batteries.
Boeing Dreamliner's Lithium-Ion Battery Fails On United Flight To Paris
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New York Post and a deadly vape pen
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Even Boeing is having serious problems with Li-ion batteries.
Boeing Dreamliner's Lithium-Ion Battery Fails On United Flight To Paris
Um, life is tragic and sad. I'm personally NOT blaming that kid one bit. But saying it is tragic and sad changes nothing. It' a platitude, offered up to the masses.
We are ALL going to die and I'm going to assume it will be tragic and sad for ALL of us. We all choose our risks, sometimes unknowingly.
Time would be better spent in figuring out how to help new vapers understand "big rigs" often mean "big risks."
But wailing and gnashing our teeth... you can if you want but it's pointless. In my opinion "what a senseless tragedy" is handing this death to the OTHER side on a golden platter.
How about a concrete: We will try X. We can have a donation fund that offers vape shops who wish to participate educational materials.
It kind of goes without saying that EVERYONE'S death is tragic and sad, and age is COMPLETELY irrelevant. Ignorance is NOT and by that HE DID NOT GET THE HELP HE NEEDED and perhaps at SOME point in the process it would have been avoidable. That is really all that matters to me.
Disaster rescue (which I am trained in) focuses on JUST that too-- where is this "Senseless tragedy" avoidable so it can not be repeated. I'm not saying his family isn't traumatized and he shouldn't get help. But what *I* care about almost EXCLUSIVELY is where was the chain of safety broken and can it be fixed?
That would be the thing to focus on. And even if we do something, there is an acceptable risk that ecigs carry. I am not an insurance actuary, and the numbers are spotty but if we got one, I am going to bet that his calculations "For insurance purposes" would be that a certain amount of ECIG error, compared to the good of the many, is justified by FAR more than 2. As long as he was not paid by the FDA.
I'm not trying to be callous. Just realistic.
Anna
We are ALL going to die and I'm going to assume it will be tragic and sad for ALL of us. We all choose our risks, sometimes unknowingly.
Time would be better spent in figuring out how to help new vapers understand "big rigs" often mean "big risks."
But wailing and gnashing our teeth... you can if you want but it's pointless. In my opinion "what a senseless tragedy" is handing this death to the OTHER side on a golden platter.
How about a concrete: We will try X. We can have a donation fund that offers vape shops who wish to participate educational materials.
It kind of goes without saying that EVERYONE'S death is tragic and sad, and age is COMPLETELY irrelevant. Ignorance is NOT and by that HE DID NOT GET THE HELP HE NEEDED and perhaps at SOME point in the process it would have been avoidable. That is really all that matters to me.
Disaster rescue (which I am trained in) focuses on JUST that too-- where is this "Senseless tragedy" avoidable so it can not be repeated. I'm not saying his family isn't traumatized and he shouldn't get help. But what *I* care about almost EXCLUSIVELY is where was the chain of safety broken and can it be fixed?
That would be the thing to focus on. And even if we do something, there is an acceptable risk that ecigs carry. I am not an insurance actuary, and the numbers are spotty but if we got one, I am going to bet that his calculations "For insurance purposes" would be that a certain amount of ECIG error, compared to the good of the many, is justified by FAR more than 2. As long as he was not paid by the FDA.
I'm not trying to be callous. Just realistic.
Anna
@B2L
Tried cut quoting your post but some of your quote meta tags didn’t have spaces after them and it made the auto quote system completely mess up, so I’ll go after this one as a big wad, which is going to make it come out vague, but here goes:
The issue at its heart is that there is another term that means personal responsibility: assumption of risk.
This is where wealth comes in. Wealthy people can much more easily withstand the downturns of risk. Chattel slavery is mostly about conning people into accepting levels of risk they cannot withstand.
Furthermore with risk often comes reward. When you’re several mistakes high in the air you can afford to increase your risk burden and potentially gain those rewards.
The very wealthy therefore generally champion greater levels of risk because they are more able to take advantage of it while being more immune to its problems and simultaneously in an excellent position to victimize those who lose the risk lottery.
As a result “personal responsibility” is a favorite phrase of the very rich, and has been for a thousand years.
Tried cut quoting your post but some of your quote meta tags didn’t have spaces after them and it made the auto quote system completely mess up, so I’ll go after this one as a big wad, which is going to make it come out vague, but here goes:
The issue at its heart is that there is another term that means personal responsibility: assumption of risk.
This is where wealth comes in. Wealthy people can much more easily withstand the downturns of risk. Chattel slavery is mostly about conning people into accepting levels of risk they cannot withstand.
Furthermore with risk often comes reward. When you’re several mistakes high in the air you can afford to increase your risk burden and potentially gain those rewards.
The very wealthy therefore generally champion greater levels of risk because they are more able to take advantage of it while being more immune to its problems and simultaneously in an excellent position to victimize those who lose the risk lottery.
As a result “personal responsibility” is a favorite phrase of the very rich, and has been for a thousand years.
That's why I think there is a market for a "safer" 18650 battery - I believe any battery manufacturer who takes this seriously will reap a windfall. If you look at some of the things people get up to with them, it's scary. Mech mods + 18650's are without a doubt, way off the spec sheet, but people being people are innovative and frequently repurpose stuff. The amount of 18650 product out there is growing rapidly, and I can guarantee not all the designers will care about safety, reputation, electronic regulation, thermal/explosion containment or indeed their customers.
I never forget the phrase my dad told me over 50 years ago when he was teaching me how to tighten up screws etc. He said - if they don't go in, you can use a Birmingham screwdriver - e.g. a hammer !!!
I hope this chap doesn't get a short somewhere (and also that you are not from Birmingham)
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Sorry about the quote tags, I’m on an iPad and it wasn’t playing nicely with copy/paste so I had to wing it.
I understand what you’re saying but... cause and effect. Are they wealthy therefore willing to take more risk/responsibility or are they willing to take more risk/responsibility therefore they are wealthy? I know the answer isn’t that simple but I’d be willing to bet it’s more of the latter.
Just realized how off topic I’ve gotten, sorry, I’ll shut up now
It is absolutely tragic and sad. Am I blaming the kid? Yes, I guess in a way I am. Did his actions cause the incident (whether through ignorance or otherwise)? Yes, I believe they did.
Doesn’t make it any less sad or tragic, but as an alternative to cigarettes, which kill you when used exactly according to how they’re intended, it’s not a reason to impugn a whole industry (which is exactly what this and many other articles are doing).
History and statistics say “nope”. That’s the other big wealthiness myth. The theory is that wealthy people are wealthy because of innate superior qualities. This is almost (but not quite) always not true. Generally it’s luck, or a truly nefarious high risk deed that payed off (which is sort of the same thing really). Generally a series of both at once. Old money generally hates new money. New monied people are often dangerous to them. Either because they are predators or very very rarely, have genuinely superior skills.
Old monied people are just regular folks who’s accident of birth was their allotment of luck. Generally they just get along leveraging their privelidge to make more money, Or more frequently failing to do so slowly and pining for a time when their inferior skills would have been enough to keep them on top. They’re often even less competent than less wealthy peers because they live in a vastly less competitive environment, and don’t have to either produce much or experience the results of bad decisions. Ayn Rand, for example, was sort of a poster child for old money. She came from a family of European nobility who had slowly lost their fortune over time. She had some minor skill as a writer (her books aren’t terribly well written, but passible ) who was completely smitten with the concept of innate genetic superiority and felt she deserved better because of her genes. Her books generally evangelize the myth of innate superiority, often at a serious cost in literary quality.
Let's just agree to disagree on this point--at least in this instance.
Nobody here is impugning the whole industry and I didn't expect anything else from our press. Most of them are lazy, uninformed and often corrupt.
But I expect more from the industry. We've always been good at self-policing, from day one, mainly because we had to. They really are out to get us, so we have to self-police. Mechs and Li-ion batteries is a bad combination and we have to fix it--sooner rather than later.
If I blame someone/somebody/anybody, it's the politics and the FDA and their idiotic deeming regulations, which keep us in dark ages of vaping and impede progress and safety.
You may find this interesting (old article):
Why safer vaping devices that don't explode will not be available in the U.S.
Total, complete and utter insanity.
UL (Universal Laboratories) is a highly respected independent organisation with an outstanding global reputation. So we have the bizarre situation where we have an embryonic e-cig certification standard, which manufacturers can pay for having their device evaluated, and quality assured, but the FDA will not allow them to be sold in the US. This standard, UL8139, covers electrical and fire hazards.
So the sensible thing to do is a] Only permit UL (or CE whatever) quality assured devices to be sold after a certain date and b] Include a standard for mech mods and a new, extra safe e-cig battery.
The only stumbling block is how much manufacturers will be willing to pay for certification, and how much of this would be passed on to the consumer. This would mean the bigger manufacturers would be able spread the cost, but it would effectively drive the smaller businesses out.
Job done. Your only problem then, as always, is counterfeits. UL Announces Certification for Electronic Cigarettes | UL - Empowering Trust.
It never even occurred to me in my previous posts that there might be an e-cig standard.
I do hope I have misunderstood this. Otherwise, I fear the men in white jackets with big leather straps and fancy buckles will be coming to take me away soon.
Nevertheless, well done Joytech.
If you want to read the technical standard, it will cost you a mere $420. I'm afraid I've spent my vape budget for this month
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With respect you're confusing legislators with media coverage. What a paper does doesn't drive legislation.
Of course but this has nothing to do legislation either. Any intelligent business owner looks at trends and legislation potential as to it's effect on their balance sheet.
I understand hat you may be preoccupied with the Brexit issue. However this has nothing to do with the discussion about mechs and battery safety/legislation. In fact there will probably no new laws passed in the UK for the foreseeable future. They're too occupied with the brexit
Is the sky falling? No. But in the current febrile political climate, its anyone's guess where we will end up
I agree that certainty should not be an issue in the forefront of everyone's mind at the moment. But we should still maintain a detached logic on all the issues that we encounter. Heey i'm still hoping for a people's vote and I live in France
Look i'm not trying to hound you @Old Greybeard honestly. This capacitor experiment bares absolutely no relationship to batteries with a positive pole. Current test's show that they will always vent from the positive end. This video is a good example of what gas expansion can do in a sealed container though.
As I said before we need much more testing/experimentation to be done regarding mech's and ventilation placement on them. It's why I am going to approach a couple of chinese companies that I work with occasionally to see if we can come up with something useful.
No worries @charlie1465, I don't feel hounded in the slightest and debate is good for the soul.
Is that because they have the vent at the positive end (e.g. path of least resistance)? Or is there something more complex at play?
The point I was trying to make with the capacitor demo was to demonstrate the difference between the older generation orange capacitor (which exploded off camera with considerable violence) and the newer design with a rubber (?) seal and stress indentations on the bottom which stayed in shot. If battery manufacturers could replicate that type of fail-safe, we would be in a better place.
Well done on being proactive with the manufacturers, that is just what is needed.
On the other matters, lets JATG (Just agree to disagree)
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Well done on being proactive with the manufacturers, that is just what is needed.
On the other matters, lets JATG (Just agree to disagree)
@Old Greybeard Agreed and yes debate is good for just about anything that needs a solution
Glad to see you're an exponent of the useful acronym so let's JFDI
I will definitely take my thoughts about battery experimentation to the chinese manufacturers that I have connections with....I will publicise any response I get on this forum.
Yes, from all the evidence I have come across regarding a venting incident the gases have always taken the path of least resistance. Whether a fusion of the interior chemistry has the potential to change this I don't know...We need more controlled experimentation.
In my view this exists already with batteries in that there is a path of least resistance (positive end). Correct me if i'm wrong but that is what is happening in effect with the capacitors.
Good luck to you
Cylindrical Li-ion batteries have a pre-designed weak spot under the positive end. When gas within the "can" reaches a certain pressure, the pre-weakened spot blows and allows the gas to excape, preventing the entire can from exploding. So yes, that is the path of least resistance.
That's the reason that I'm always adament that vent holes in a metal tube mod should be located just above where the positive end of the battery is.
If the vent holes are located in the fire switch, which they often are, if the battery compartment leaves no room for the gas to pass past the battery to the bottom of the mod/battery, then those holes become ineffective. It's not unusual for a battery can to "swell" from the heat and pressure during a venting incident, which can also obstruct the gas from escaping. This to me is a dangerous design flaw.
Looking from the bottom up, there is little to no room for gas to escape past the battery in a tube mod with vent holes located in the bottom of the mod. Especially if the can should swell up or the shrink wrap bubbles up from the heat.
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Yep absolutely, and that's why i would always say that in those circumstances it is safer to have the positive end facing the switch along with very well wrapped batteries.
Not ideal I know but safer
With regard to swelling I tend to think that the gas will get past this obstruction rather than blow the tube apart. That's why we need some investigation in this area.
@Mooch Hi Mooch I don't suppose you have any plans in this area of investigation...controlled venting experiments and different orientations in a tube mech mod?
That solution is sound unless your battery wraps are bad. Having worked in a vape shop and seen the condition of some vaper's battery wraps...
Did you see my photo of looking up through the bottom of a tube mod with a battery in it? Have you seen how insulating wrap krinkles in a large mass when exposed to heat?
Having said that, I agree that we need some investagation in this area. I doubt that anyone has yet.
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Too many possible variations of mod and battery. I don’t think I could come to any useful conclusions other than “don’t let your batteries go into thermal runaway”.
So today at my work a fellow vaper pulls up while puffing on his DRAG and says "did you hear about that idiot that blew himself up in Texas?"
I thought of this thread.....
I thought of this thread.....
We don't know where he bought it from and if he was informed about mech's potencial danger.
We don't know if a friend gave it to him without explaining the dangers behind unproper use of it.
Until this mystery is solved,nobody has the wright to call him idiot!!
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