Thank you voltaire, not sure why those didn't come up in my searches. Sorry for the OT.
propylene glycol, and glycerine...... see this, if you havent already.
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Yes, I'm a type 2 diabetic and I vape about 1.43ml per day. That is, a 30ml bottle of 24mg juice will last me about 21 days.
I've experimented with both PG and VG based liquids and kept a record of my blood pressure and glucose levels. Many people are saying VG is healthier, but that hasn't been my experience. I had to adjust my diet because of VG since it did raise my blood sugar about 24 mg/dL above my daily target. I'm subject to pancreas inflammation, so I have to watch myself closely. However, I also noticed the glucose levels differ between other flavors of VG mixes. For example a rootbeer flavor increases my blood sugar more than a menthol flavor will. But, the reason why rootbeer is worse is because I have a habit of licking the excess liquid from the bottom sides of the cartridge when switching it out. I can't help it, rootbeer VG tastes delicious! I don't do that with menthol VG though, I just like the cooling sensation menthol gives to my windpipe. Another thing is I sometimes drip vape on a high volt mod and when the coil gets red hot it splatters tiny drops of VG into my mouth. Since there is an oral variable in vaping combined with tissue absorption, I don't think VG is suitable for all diabetics. You can still try it, but please be careful. Not everybody is the same and so your results may be better than mine.
I don't have a problem with PG. It seems to be much more suitable for me. I can't detect any change in my blood sugar while using it. I've tried blueberry, vanilla, and menthol PG mixes. Vanilla tastes the sweetest, but still no change in blood sugar. I prefer menthol most of the time.
Another thing you should pay attention to is your blood pressure and note any differences between PG and VG. Looking back at my records while vaping VG I see I'm in the Hypertensive zone on average. When I switch to PG my blood pressure slowly drops back into normal ranges and stabilizes within 3 days. I finally decided to mix down the remaining VG I had left and cut it with a PG based liquid (half-n-half). My blood pressure is still borderline hypertensive, but it's not nearly as bad while I was using a straight VG mix. When I run out of the cut VG mixes, I promise not to vape any VG ever again!!!
I was curious about why vaping VG was doing these things to me so quickly. I soon learned it has something to do with the scorching of vegetable fats and causing a slightly higher acrolein reaction which does happen in the atomizer unit of the e-cig, and especially so with a high volt mod. You can smell it when it happens, it smells like burnt grease. Some people interpret it as a good "throat hit", but that is actually a warning sign to bring down the temperature. They also interpret it as an "awesome vapor cloud", but its actually a trace of smoke in the vapor cloud that makes it look so cool. It's not enough to be flammable, but it should be enough to cause a little concern... especially since acrolein was used as a chemical weapon during WWI. It's a choking agent tear gas which may effect some users more than others. So if any VG user is wondering why their eyes are slightly irritated more than what PG does, then now you know.
But anywho, after learning about all of that, combined with my personal experiences, I would have to say that VG is bad. That doesn't get PG off the hook either, I'm just saying PG is the lesser of the two evils when it comes to vaping. I have less trouble with PG and it seems to suit me better. And besides, PG works better in my 510's. VG has destroyed 2 of my atty's in half the time it takes PG to do it in. Gee, I wonder why e-cigs were designed to run PG based liquids to begin with? Hmmm... could it be that the inventors and the professional lab techs actually know what they are doing? When it comes to new products which fall short of proper field testing, I think it's safer to follow the manufacturers recommendations a bit closer. Don't ya think?
The BA has spoken.
V4Lis4me, I don't want to sound like too much of an ... here, but we're only consuming a very small amount.
First, consider your daily intake. How many mLs are you consuming? I personally vape 2-3mLs daily.
Secondly, consider how much of those 2-3mLs are actually being deposited internally. I'm not sure of the percentage, but if you're blowing out vapor it's not all of it. For these purposes, lets say 50% is being deposited. We are now at 1-1.5mLs/day.
Third, we have to ignore the amount vapor deposited in the mouth, as that will likely be mixed with saliva and swallowed(a known safe route:reference). Again, this amount is a total guess, but 25% of the remainder sounds fair(I know I'm doing this backwards, mouth deposition would be before exhaling). We're now looking at .75-1.125mLs/day.
At this low of a level, I wouldn't perceive any major health effects, apart from people who may be sensitive to PG. The NIH seems to agree based on a preclinical test of inhaled cyclosporine in PG. You might be better served putting more thought into the flavorings used, or even the nicotine, which is proven to be highly toxic.
I don't even think that that much is actually being deposited to our lungs internally..this was taken from the NASA research:
Because the solubility of PG in water is high, one might expect that any inhaled vapor reaching the lungs would be very well absorbed by the lung and metabolized by the liver in a fashion similar to its metabolism from an ingested dose, although one might expect some quantitative differences. Cavender and Sowinski (1994) described a work in which humans were exposed to 10% PG in a mist tent with labeled deionized water. Less than 5% of the mist entered the body and, of this amount, 90% lodged in the nasopharynx and disappeared in the stomach; very little was found in the lungs. It appears that most of the inhaled PG aerosol becomes trapped in the upper respiratory tract and does not reach the lungs.
I think a key point here is that propylene glycol has only shown toxic effects in very acute doses, and cumulative exposure is not an issue as it breaks down completely and naturally. A couple of points to note from the CDC:
Ethylene Glycol and Propylene Glycol Toxicity: What is Propylene Glycol | ATSDR - Environmental Medicine & Environmental Health Education - CSEM
Ethylene Glycol and Propylene Glycol Toxicity: What is Propylene Glycol | ATSDR - Environmental Medicine & Environmental Health Education - CSEM
When I was smoking cigarettes I was so completely addicted I never bothered to investigate about all the chemicals in the cigs, and I knew for a fact it was harming me. Cigarette addiction is just like any other addiction and the addict just looks for his next fix which was a cigarette in my case. If I ran out of cigs at 2:00 a.m. I would jump in my car and get to any 7-11 or any store that was opened to buy a pack of cigs never once worried about my safety at 2:00 a.m. in a fairly large city. Now that I am using e-cigs only I have calmed down and I do read the health issues possibly associated with e-cigs. I think this is all a bit ironic when considering the over 4.000 chemicals I ingested for years and never once looked a single chemical and its health risks!!
Time magazine
I see Thor beat me to it, but I thought I'd post a quote instead of a link. I'm just new, but are you sure that you are not researching industrial PG vice food-grade?
P.S.--The experiments mentioned above relate to inhaling vaporized food grade PG.
Nice, I hope it's tested again and turns out to be true, for VG as well.
Incidentally, I've been surrounded by flu sick people at home and work for months now. I've had so much exposure I should have been sick by now, if every other year is anything to go on. Before, I'd just think about catching something and it happens, but skated through this time. I attribute it to washing my hands a lot, not touching my face, eating right, and not smoking as many cigs since I found vapor. I wonder if the VG was helping. More reason to VAPE HARDER!
Incidentally, I've been surrounded by flu sick people at home and work for months now. I've had so much exposure I should have been sick by now, if every other year is anything to go on. Before, I'd just think about catching something and it happens, but skated through this time. I attribute it to washing my hands a lot, not touching my face, eating right, and not smoking as many cigs since I found vapor. I wonder if the VG was helping. More reason to VAPE HARDER!
I have asthma and use an inhaler. I'm in the process of switching to vaping to replace my smoking. Those of us that use these inhalers don't use them several times a day everyday. If you're doing that, it means your daily meds aren't working and your Dr. needs to try something else. So no, we're not getting nearly the dose as with vaping. While I still believe that vaping is safer then smoking, no, having it in inhalers doesn't mean its safe to vape. An inhaler is used because its better then suffocating. The PG is the most effective delivery system for the med thats used. (That's why its good for delivering nicotine.) Your lungs weren't designed for chemical addtions of any kind on a daily basis. That said, I still think it's better then smoking, as that can cause all those problems and more.
I think we should all be just as concerned and worried as the original poster appears to be. I am not buying any of the arguments about studies and uses of PG that we have presently. The above quoted argument is the most convincing for me. If something bad could be shown about PG it would have been brought forward by those who stand to benefit tremendous amounts of wealth. We know they exist. Are they not worried?
Having been vaping for 2 months now, I think e-cigs are going to take up to 50% of the tobacco market share in the next 10 years. The vast majority of smokers wishes they could quit or smoke less.
Personally, I have convinced myself that if I inhale up to 50 or 75 puffs per day I will be OK. I can't go back to smocking. I am worried about those that inhale 300, 400, 500 and more puffs per day. Especially with the "phlem" discussions going on. I'm sure you guys know.
Maybe some day I will quit vaping as well. However, I will always have a e-cig for the difficult moments of temptation.
Also, thank you to everybody here for their contributions.
The person had PG put directly into an IV. The amount of PG had he IV is staggering: 2.1L. Yes, in 4 days, this guy had 2 liters of PG pumped directly into his system.
In excess, many things are toxic. One of the most common things people around the consume is toxic in large quantities. Dihydrogen monoxide is one of the more common substances we consume regularly which is highly toxic and often fatal, when consumed in large quantities. The fatality rate for those who ingest too much dihydrogen monoxide is nearly 100% but billions of people use it safely every day. Andy Warhol died from it, when DMHO administered by a Dr, caused his death by heart attack.
DMHO is water and yes, in large quantities, it's highly toxic and often fatal. People are recommened to drink 1.5L of water per day, but 4.5L in an hour can and has killed people.
The man in the story linked had 2L of PG delivered via IV over 4 days. If anyone is vaping 2L of PG in 4 days, I would think they would have some health issues as well.
As with most things, moderation is key.
Here's an interesting article about PG from Time Magazine, 1942:
Medicine: Air Germicide - TIME
The section I found the most interesting:
EDITED TO ADD:
DOH! Just realized this was posted on the previous page... I must have missed it.
Too slow on the draw I guess.
Medicine: Air Germicide - TIME
The section I found the most interesting:
EDITED TO ADD:
DOH! Just realized this was posted on the previous page... I must have missed it.
Too slow on the draw I guess.
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Just my 2 cents on this, I agree mostly with all the posts here... I believe that vaping is WAY better than smoking because we are no longer burning and inhaling tar, carbon monoxide, thousands of chemicals etc... however, I am still a bit worried about PG, simply because the long term effects of inhaling it all day every day are simply not known. We do know that smoking usually takes 30 - 40 years or so to kill you, but does vaping PG take 6 years, 8 years to kill you? Or is it completly harmless??? We can speculate, but we really don't have all the answers. We must rely on the chemists and doctors among us to give us their take, and forums and threads like this are necessary. Lets keep the dialog open and respectful... and thanks for all who continue to provide their expertise.
Peace all!!!
Peace all!!!
Those effects of PG use, whatever way it gets into the body, would really only occur in quite high and ongoing doses. The amount that we vape would not come close to lethal or damaging levels. Our body will metabolise the PG, and excrete it. As long as we don't vape constantly every second that we are not sleeping, we should be fine. I'm not the least bit concerned
The main way to avoid excess vaping is to make sure that you have found the right dose of nicotine to satisfy cravings. If the dose is right, there should be no cravings or 'hanging out' (like a ...... addict).
I don't believe that PG will stay in the lungs and build up - unless someone vapes so much that their lungs don't get a chance to absorb the PG, whereby it makes its way into the bloodstream to be metabolised just like glucose.
Let's not forget, that inhaling an e-liquid concoction is far safer than inhaling smoke of any kind.
Lastly, drink plenty of water to aid those kidneys, and speed the process of ex......g the PG (well, at least what the body/liver has converted it into).
The main way to avoid excess vaping is to make sure that you have found the right dose of nicotine to satisfy cravings. If the dose is right, there should be no cravings or 'hanging out' (like a ...... addict).
I don't believe that PG will stay in the lungs and build up - unless someone vapes so much that their lungs don't get a chance to absorb the PG, whereby it makes its way into the bloodstream to be metabolised just like glucose.
Let's not forget, that inhaling an e-liquid concoction is far safer than inhaling smoke of any kind.
Lastly, drink plenty of water to aid those kidneys, and speed the process of ex......g the PG (well, at least what the body/liver has converted it into).
I think this is precisely the point! A well written post, thanks!!
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