propylene glycol, and glycerine...... see this, if you havent already.

[paladinx]

Rofl. I really dont understand the sense in some of these statements. PG is in small amounts in cigarettes, so that means its ok? I mean isn't that a little backwards? Cigarettes are the modern day Satan. Cigarettes are being proven to kill, so how is relating PG in cigarettes a good idea to convey saftey in something. Talking about food and asmtha inhalers fine, but I wouldn't even mention cigarettes. Anything in cigarettes are going to be assumed by the general public as a bad thing right off the bat.

I think the main problem we have here is because e-cigs are inhaled through the lungs, because they look and sometimes taste like a cigarette we want to compare them head on. To me they are two completely different products used in the same way. Cigarettes are tobacco, e cigs are batteries, electricity and juice. I rather look at it like something brand new and not just keep comparing it to cigarettes. We already know how cigarettes kill, we know the dangers of it. Obviously things that lack the same ingredients as cigarettes are not going to have all of the inherent dangers. I think that has been overly established on this forum.

and like i said we cannot use cigarettes as a gauge to measure the saftey of PG, because all anyone ever knows is that everything in cigarettes is bad and does damage. How are we supposed to identify what damages the PG itself has done alone if any at all through cigarettes? Impossible.

again the bottom line is. From a common sense stand point E-cigs are much safter than cigarettes. Thats how most of us feel thats why we do it. However, the reality is, although very likely that the above statement is true, we do not know definitively. We do not know what vaping long term in large amounts will do to the body or organs. Perhaps the lungs will be fine, and the kidneys go. Every action has a reaction. We simply do not know 100 percent yet. u can compare ashma inhalers of pg being in food products all you want, but no one has currently inhaled heated E-juice everyday, 7 days a week for 20 years.

 

[Mister]

Rofl. I really dont understand the sense in some of these statements. PG is in small amounts in cigarettes, so that means its ok? I mean isn't that a little backwards? Cigarettes are the modern day Satan. Cigarettes are being proven to kill, so how is relating PG in cigarettes a good idea to convey saftey in something. Talking about food and asmtha inhalers fine, but I wouldn't even mention cigarettes. Anything in cigarettes are going to be assumed by the general public as a bad thing right off the bat.

I think the main problem we have here is because e-cigs are inhaled through the lungs, because they look and sometimes taste like a cigarette we want to compare them head on. To me they are two completely different products used in the same way. Cigarettes are tobacco, e cigs are batteries, electricity and juice. I rather look at it like something brand new and not just keep comparing it to cigarettes. We already know how cigarettes kill, we know the dangers of it. Obviously things that lack the same ingredients as cigarettes are not going to have all of the inherent dangers. I think that has been overly established on this forum.

and like i said we cannot use cigarettes as a gauge to measure the saftey of PG, because all anyone ever knows is that everything in cigarettes is bad and does damage. How are we supposed to identify what damages the PG itself has done alone if any at all through cigarettes? Impossible.

again the bottom line is. From a common sense stand point E-cigs are much safter than cigarettes. Thats how most of us feel thats why we do it. However, the reality is, although very likely that the above statement is true, we do not know definitively. We do not know what vaping long term in large amounts will do to the body or organs. Perhaps the lungs will be fine, and the kidneys go. Every action has a reaction. We simply do not know 100 percent yet. u can compare ashma inhalers of pg being in food products all you want, but no one has currently inhaled heated E-juice everyday, 7 days a week for 20 years.

The point of comparing to cigarettes is:

1) Almost everyone using e-cigs is using them as an alternative to cigarettes, so:

2) The most important thing regarding their safety is not whether e-cigs are absolutely safe, it is whether they are safer than cigarettes or not.

3) Any ingredient present in e-cigs which is also present in cigarettes in similar amounts is clearly not more dangerous than smoking. But any ingredient which is in e-cigs and is not in cigarettes requires more analysis than that.

4) Since nicotine, PG, and VG are present in significant quantities in cigarettes, we need not worry much about their safety when we vape instead of smoking.

5) Since hundreds of other known harmful ingredients are in cigarettes and are not in e-cigs, e-cigs are clearly virtually certain to be less harmful than cigarettes.

The above logic leaves out questions about flavorings and the increased PG consumption with e-cigs, but the point stands, particularly for unflavored e-liquid of good purity.

 

[paladinx]

"2) The most important thing regarding their safety is not whether e-cigs are absolutely safe, it is whether they are safer than cigarettes or not."

right and I believe its more than just stating what is in cigarettes that are not in ecigs.


"3) Any ingredient present in e-cigs which is also present in cigarettes in similar amounts is clearly not more dangerous than smoking. But any ingredient which is in e-cigs and is not in cigarettes requires more analysis than that."

I think every ingredient in E-cigs should be analyzed why not? people are making a lot of money selling these things in the name of safe , safer

"4) Since nicotine, PG, and VG are present in significant quantities in cigarettes, we need not worry much about their safety when we vape instead of smoking."

we don't? why not? Why would we dismiss the main ingredient just because it exists in cigarettes? Does it mean that we know exactly the harms and dangers of this chemical just because it exists in cigarettes? And would you really say similar amounts?? ecigs main ingredient is heated PG, we are vaping pure PG. Cigarettes have a little mixed in and for all we know gets burned off. If we do not know the risks fully why dismiss it entirely? Should be our endeavor to make these products as safe as possible. If PG ends up being responsible for kidney failure, or something else over time, why would u want to share that kind of common ingredient, Just hypothetically speaking.

"5) Since hundreds of other known harmful ingredients are in cigarettes and are not in e-cigs, e-cigs are clearly virtually certain to be less harmful than cigarettes."

" i agree, thats what everyone knows already though. The question should not just be that. If the FDA came out with a new medication for quitting smoking, they are not going to just conclude the medication is safer just because it does not contain the cancer causing substances that cigarettes have or tar etc. The meds might be dangerous in an entirely different way. "

"The above logic leaves out questions about flavorings and the increased PG consumption with e-cigs, but the point stands, particularly for unflavored e-liquid of good purity."

Good purity. Wouldnt you say that too is a crap shoot? I do not see anyone totally guranteeing us anything. Who is really regulating it? The chinese? i mean their factories can be the best in the world right now producing this liquid, but you have to admit, China truly does have a bad track record when it comes to quality control and contamination problems.

 

[Vapor Vamp]

Kristin just about explained it all when she correctly cites the use of PG as the vehical in Asthma Inhalers as well as NRT"s such as Nicotrol all having spent millions of dollars on studies and obtaining FDA approval.

So if you are looking for the ultimate stamp of approval---PG has it by the FDA.


Sun

While I agree PG is relatively harmless...I wouldn't call the FDA "the ultimate stamp of approval".

Not by a long shot.

 

[paladinx]

where does it say anywhere that nicotrol has pg in it? I cant seem to find it, The only place I see it being said is on E-cig forums.

and very few things do damange with infrequent use or in very small quantities. rate of consumption, heating something up, as well as the amount are all key factors to consider.

 

[Badfish20]

I'd rather die vaping caramel cheesecake, then ash

Doesnt really matter what the FDA finds, cuz I won't believe them. Part of the government, part of the lobbyist suckers. Greed first, peoples welfare second.

 

[Mister]

"4) Since nicotine, PG, and VG are present in significant quantities in cigarettes, we need not worry much about their safety when we vape instead of smoking."

we don't? why not? Why would we dismiss the main ingredient just because it exists in cigarettes? Does it mean that we know exactly the harms and dangers of this chemical just because it exists in cigarettes? And would you really say similar amounts?? ecigs main ingredient is heated PG, we are vaping pure PG. Cigarettes have a little mixed in and for all we know gets burned off. If we do not know the risks fully why dismiss it entirely?

I don't suggest dismissing it. What I'm getting at is that we can be fairly sure it is not going to cause us as much or more harm than smoking. Which is the most important first thing to establish. I'd love to know more than that and avidly read whatever I can find to better understand this stuff. But in the meantime we can say that:
a) PG is present on the same order of magnitude in at least some cigarettes.
b) Cigarette toxicity has been so extensively studied that the harmful effects of some substances present at 5 or more orders of magnitude less than PG have been identified. Yet no one has identified negative effects from PG in smoke. This absence of data actually tells us quite a bit about how harmful PG is not.

"The above logic leaves out questions about flavorings and the increased PG consumption with e-cigs, but the point stands, particularly for unflavored e-liquid of good purity."

Good purity. Wouldnt you say that too is a crap shoot? I do not see anyone totally guranteeing us anything. Who is really regulating it? The chinese? i mean their factories can be the best in the world right now producing this liquid, but you have to admit, China truly does have a bad track record when it comes to quality control and contamination problems.

There's a lot more known about quality than you realize. There are meaningful standards in place at some manufacturers, e.g. Dekang. Vapor4Life monitors the quality of the production it uses from China and have shown some very impressive pictures of the facilities on the forums. They are serious clean rooms, much better than any small business in North America is using I think.

And if you are willing to pay for it, you can get top notch guarantees of purity by buying Totally Wicked's Platinum Ice. Expensive juice but it is backed up by as much proof of purity as you could ask for. Vape that unflavored and you needn't worry about anything except nicotine and PG.

 

[paladinx]

Are you really sure about the PG amount being comparable? I would imagine if you are vaping 100 percent PG as your number 1 ingredient, you are going to be consuming a hell of a lot more of the substance. I mean thats just a common sense point of view. plus what does extreme heat do to the chemical, does it simply burn off? What about semi heating it, or not heating it at all. I think these are some variables to consider as well. heat plays a big part with chemical composition.

With all the crap in cigarettes why would they really bother pointing out an ingredient that is widely used in everything, honestly. They rather point out ingredients like arsenic in trace amounts just to scare people with 0 real relevance.

I agree with what your saying. I just feel that up to this point the effects of PG heated to ecig temp's and inhaled in significant quanties for an extended period of time has not been studied in detail, and the result is unknown to us. There is a lot of common sense things everyone talks about to give us a general idea that it should be safe, but nothing is yet conclusive.

Do i think its safer than smoking cigarettes, yes. Not arguing that point. But I am just simply saying that its not 100 percent conclusive. Its an informed guess of comparing apples to oranges. The only way we are truly going to know is in 20 or 40 years if some of us start coming down with problems.

 

[lorikay13]

This is a most fascinating thread! I promised myself I was going to stay out of it but hey...it's Saturday...the hubby is at work and I'm bored....so here goes

None of us really knows anything. It's all about perceptual reality. It takes a bigger leap of faith to believe something in the name of science than most religions require. Why I say that? Because where are you/me/any of us actually getting this information from???? The Internet/ Magazines...newspapers....where? Is anyone in this thread or on this forum actually standing in a laboratory ?

So we all make decisions based on our own perception of the information that is available to us. And IF we are lucky we live in a country that allows us that freedom. I used to think I did...........

ps..oh yeah...disclaimer I claim to know NOTHING myself....obviously this is just my opinion. No more or less valuable than your own.

 

[Mister]

Are you really sure about the PG amount being comparable? I would imagine if you are vaping 100 percent PG as your number 1 ingredient, you are going to be consuming a hell of a lot more of the substance. I mean thats just a common sense point of view. plus what does extreme heat do to the chemical, does it simply burn off? What about semi heating it, or not heating it at all. I think these are some variables to consider as well. heat plays a big part with chemical composition.

It is at the same order of magnitude. If you vape 2ml of 100% PG per day that's 2mg. If you smoke 20 cigarettes per day that's about 20mg of something. If 10% of that something were PG then you'd be using 2mg of PG when smoking. The highest PG content in cigarettes I've seen is 3%, so 1/3 of that, i.e. 1/3 of the amount the vaper is using. So yes the vaper is getting a lot more, by a factor of 3, but that's not a huge difference. A three pack a day smoker might get nearly as much PG as a typical vaper. It is enough that toxicity in cigarettes would certainly be known if severe.

We don't know what the extra heat does. The hottest part of a cigarette can be 800C. PG evaporates at 188C. It is a good bet that a lot of the PG is evaporating as the heat cone approaches it and arriving in the smoker unchanged. I don't know however.

Here's a link to some historical reductions and increases in use of PG in cigarettes: Tobacco Documents | Profiles | Additives | Propylene Glycol

With all the crap in cigarettes why would they really bother pointing out an ingredient that is widely used in everything, honestly. They rather point out ingredients like arsenic in trace amounts just to scare people with 0 real relevance.

There are enough studies on cigarette smoke to more than address the issue. It is not a matter of anyone wanting to point out an ingredient, unless you only read material spewed by the media and by origanizations like the FDA who do "cherry pick" what they want to talk about. If you read some actual studies, researchers have tried to identify everything they can in smoke and to study its effects. If PG at the huge levels present (relative to many other studied elements in cigarettes) were very harmful to smokers this would be known by now.

 

[katking]

If anything is a legitimate concern, it's the flavorings - THOSE are the great unkown. But whatever the risk, it's still a hell of a lot less than smoking tobacco.

Here is my remedy to vaping in the healthiest way possible.

SWEETENER:
Mix 1 oz BRANDY with 1 teaspoon stevia. The brandy will keep the e-juice from going rancid, especially on hot days. It also adds a wonderful flavor. This amount of stevia is REALLY sweet.

The below is approximate - I just throw things together.

E-JUICE
2 parts e-juice - I use a mild tobacco e-juice, and buy the highest nicotine content because it will be diluted.
Add PG - I cut the above by about 1./3
Add 1 full dropper of the sweetener (start with a little at a time until you get the sweetness you want)
Add a few drops of essential oils.

Flavors:
Add therapeutic grade essential oils. These oils can actually heal, and I feel that by vaping I am actually healing damage I have done by my past smoking. The initial investment to buy this quality of essential oil seems high, but when you figure you are only using a few drops, it is actually less expensive than the other flavoring. Also, you know what you are getting.

Here are some of the flavors I like best:
Cinnamon
Peppermint
Spearmint
Orange
Clove

Orange, clove and a little peppermint makes a wonderful vape.

If you want to know more about essential oils, I have a free website with over 2,000 pages of free information katking dot com

 

[lorikay13]

nice...I just went to your website and immediately contracted a virus!

 

[katking]

It is not a virus. I made the website with Frontpage and they discontinued FP, so some anti-virus programs think there is a problem. This is a known problem, but it will take me another few hundred hours to re-vamp the site, but I am working on it.

 

[katking]

Here is something I just found on VG (NOT PG), which is what I use in my e-juice.

Glycerine (or glycerol) is a natural component of all fats and oils. When fats are digested in the body, they are broken down into fatty acids and glycerine. Hence, glycerine is a non-toxic, natural food substance. It is also a good solvent of herbal constituents and a preservative. To top it off, glycerine is also sweet tasting by does not cause blood sugar problems.

Because glycerine is slightly sweet, it helps mask the disagreeable taste of many herbs. Other most pleasant tasting herbs are actually delicious when prepared in glycerine. So, by carefully, selecting herbs for both taste and efficacy, it is possible to make herbal preparations which not only work, but taste great. (or e-Juice).

So, why not just use VG?

HAPPY VAPING!

 

[Kimmy]

Found this website, even though the studies are very, very old, they are interesting. For anyone contemplating using ecigs for weight loss, there have been some studies indicating (in monkeys) inhaling PG causes weight gain.

Medicine: Air Germicide - TIME

http://www................/pg.html

 

[lorikay13]

Kimmy....could you repost that PG link please? I've never heard that one yet about the weight gain....would be interested in reading about that but the link doesn't seem to work.
Thanks!

 

[katking]

Found this website, even though the studies are very, very old, they are interesting. For anyone contemplating using ecigs for weight loss, there have been some studies indicating (in monkeys) inhaling PG causes weight gain.

Here is the website time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,932876-1,00 DOT html (Put the www first)

It also states "A powerful preventive against pneumonia, influenza and other respiratory diseases may be promised by a brilliant series of experiments conducted during the last three years at the University of Chicago's Billings Hospital. Dr. Oswald Hope Robertson last week was making final tests with a new germicidal vapor—propylene glycol—to sterilize air. If the results so far obtained are confirmed, one of the age-old searches of man will finally achieve its goal. "

 

[paladinx]

To the study below. I would be careful when digging up old studies. You would be shocked at what kind of bogus conclusions from old studies can be found if you look back far enough.

To mister. I get what you are saying. I just don't fully agree 100 percent. I just think that using cigarettes as a means to form a conclusion on PG, is inconclusive to me. The amount in every cigarette is questionable at best, the amount of PG you are actually getting from cigarettes by burning the tobacco is another question mark to me. For me personally. If i am going to inhale a particular chemical for perhaps the next 20, 30, 40 or more years of my life, simply just stating that they are in cigarettes would not be good enough for me... especially when people are making profits off of it. I honestly dont even care if they did a huge ..., non biased study of PG, and ended up stating that inhaling PG is 99.999 percent safer than tobacco smoke. Than that would be great and confirm everyone's beliefs,

I feel like with all the info we have and using just basic common sense most people would assume PG is relatively safe. And that might exactly be the case. But all I am saying is that it is not a 100 percent fact.

Our body is pretty amazing. we can ingest a lot of bad stuff and quickly dispose of it and no one would know the difference. For example the PG in a lot of products we use does not really show any ill effects in people. But that is not the major question. things change when we use things to an extreme in a certain way. Its not a question of how the body reacts to a small amount of PG in food coloring etc. Or a tiny amount used only once or twice a day in an asthma inhaler. Its how the body will end up reacting and the effects after decades of habitual use, Monday through Sunday. And no one knows for certain. And this is just PG we are talking about. Lets face it the majority of users are not just inhaling straight PG and nicotine.

 

[paladinx]

btw, where does it say anywhere that nicotrol has PG in it? I couldnt find it. just curious. No real point i am making

And one last thing. I find it kind of ironic and a little amusing that if a study is found about PG curing cancer, from the FDA or another source, everyone posts it and declares it the word of God or uses it as the backbone of their argument. However, if the opposite is true and there is a study or source of information saying something potentially negative, everyone dismisses it, or says SCREW THE FDA, they are crooked yadda yadda. lol. I mean why cant it work both ways if the FDA and others are crooked. Maybe the FDA declared PG super safe like many other chemicals because some big businesses wanted to use it to cut costs or something? All the chemicals and crap we ingest is probably why the cancer rates are increasing every year. All in the name of increasing shelf life and larger profits.

 

[Kimmy]

Kimmy....could you repost that PG link please? I've never heard that one yet about the weight gain....would be interested in reading about that but the link doesn't seem to work.
Thanks!

For some odd reason when I copy and paste the link the ecig forum might be blocking it out because its a link apparently to another forum? I don't know, but its pretty interesting research results.

I found the research results at another website, so this link might work http://www.zigcigs.com/PDF/Propylene-Glycol-Research-Study-Results.pdf

"They determined that inhaling Propylene Glycol in levels which were significantly higher than would be common under any circumstances did not have any ill effects on the monkeys used for the study. The only significant effect they noted was weight gain."

I can deff relate to it, I have gained weight since I started vaping. It is only one old study done, so we have no way of knowing how much of it is true. I think it is true though, in the beginning I lost weight, but after 6months I am gaining...other people have been experiencing this as well.