SOBER VAPERS - Vaping Sober - ROLLCALL!

[quiter]

That sums up ECF for reformed smokers too, yeah? I wanted to quit but ya'll sure did help. I did however need to read several religion threads but I'll get over them.

Sure being around people who want to quit has to help. I wonder if forcing people into AA actually hurts the groups? I would think it would by injecting people in who are likely to fail or might even want others to as well. I can see how it could work, as soon as the meeting is over they turn to one of their fellow members and ask them if they want to go get a beer. I drove one of my buddies to his meeting after he lost his driving license and the first thing he did after the meeting was go get a drink. He thought the whole thing was a joke because he didn't believe he had a problem. I could see people like him bringing a group down. I could also see people what would purposely want people to fail. Miserable being meets more miserable being and then he is happy, kind of thing.

 

[Surf Monkey]

AA is a front for religion.

While I tend to agree with that statement I know plenty of people who have been through the program and remained atheists. That "higher power" stuff doesn't have to = religious notions.

 

[BardicDruid]

AA is a front for religion.

And you have no idea what you're talking about, I have 21 years sober and am STILL an atheist.

 

[Pav]

While I tend to agree with that statement I know plenty of people who have been through the program and remained atheists. That "higher power" stuff doesn't have to = religious notions.

It used to. They changed it from "God" to "higher power".

And you have no idea what you're talking about, I have 21 years sober and am STILL an atheist.

You're anecdotal evidence does not prove that AA is not faith based.

And congrats on the 21 years.

 

[zoiDman]

It used to. They changed it from "God" to "higher power".

...

Who is "they"?

 

[Surf Monkey]

Who is "they"?

"They" would be AA in this case, z. You knew that already.

 

[zoiDman]

"They" would be AA in this case, z. You knew that already.

Do you understand the "Structure" of AA?

 

[wacdenney]

AA is like most similar types of programs. You get out of it what you put into it. If you get yourself hung up on the whole "higher power" thing, you are kindof missing the point.

I personally didn't like the NA meetings. It simply put me back hanging around junkies talking about doing dope. I also saw a lot of people change their lives with it. Different approaches work differently for different people.

 

[Wuzznt Me]

To fully understand terminology of a book written in the thirties such as the book Alcoholics Anonymous you would need a dictionary written in the same era. One example is when Bill stood looking at the gay crowd in the Mayflower Hotel bar, gay meant something entirely different than a homosexual bar. A lot of meanings have changed over the years including the definition of alcohol itself. Older dictionaries didn't consider it a drug but a fermented spirit that produces intoxification. AA is not a religious program at all. The only requirement is a desire to stop drinking. You actually don't even have to stop. Just have a desire. Sometimes the group itself is used as a "Higher Power". Good Orderly Direction, Group Of Drunks are the beginning of a long list of acronyms. There is plenty of room for Athiest, Agnostics and others that have a hard time with God.

 

[wacdenney]

I'll go ahead and share some key steps on my road to sobriety. My addiction was speed. Crank .... whatever. I'm not sure which of these words are censored??

1.) You gotta live the life. For me it was necessary to get to a point where when someone looked at me and said: "dude, you're messed up!" my response was: "You have no idea...". This gives you some real awareness of your situation. There's no more excuses like "I got it under control" or any BS like that. You are a funky junky and you damn well know it.

2.) You gotta hit rock bottom. Rock bottom looks different for different people. For some rock bottom equals jail time. For some rock bottom equals loosing your kids. For me rock bottom meant loosing damned near every one and every thing.

3.) You gotta give up. This follows immediately after rock bottom. You gotta throw up your hands and accept that you aren't capable of continuing. You have to accept rock bottom for what it is and accept that something has to change. Basically rock bottom is an event or series of events and giving up is your acceptance of where rock bottom is and that that's where you are.

4.) You gotta find one person to give you one last chance and provide support. After the 500 other last chances you've been given. After screwing over everyone in your life. You have got to have someone who will take a chance on you one last time. You have to have support. You cannot do it alone.

The last part is staying clean one day at a time. I know that sounds cliché, but it really is the way it is in the beginning. Every single day you make it without doing dope it gets that much easier to get through the next day. At the same time it's getting easier it is also getting harder. It's getting harder in other ways. You start slowly beginning to live life again. You start facing the emotions you've been running from. You start facing the people you've screwed over. You start to take on responsibilities. People have a stake in your life again. This, in a lot of ways, is really the hardest part.

 

[AJMoore]

....... At the same time it's getting easier it is also getting harder. It's getting harder in other ways. You start slowly beginning to live life again. You start facing the emotions you've been running from. You start facing the people you've screwed over. You start to take on responsibilities. People have a stake in your life again. This, in a lot of ways, is really the hardest part.

Wow. To me, that's profound. I had never thought of it in that perspective. I think I'll make more effort to help those around me be successful in their bid for recovery. Thanks Wac.

 

[wacdenney]

Wow. To me, that's profound. I had never thought of it in that perspective. I think I'll make more effort to help those around me be successful in their bid for recovery. Thanks Wac.

Yes this is a major reason for relapse and something most people do not consider. When your whole life has been an escape, life can hit you pretty hard when you turn around and face what you've done over the past 12 years. You start to experience real emotions again which is extremely difficult. All the hangups that lead to your using in the first place do not go away and those all come back for you to deal with. You have to find a job, go to school, take care of your kids... All those stressful things that people do every day can be some of the hardest things for a person in recovery to deal with. It's very difficult at first.

At first you have one job: "Don't do dope" That's hard enough but it gets easier. Next thing you know... BAM!! LIFE is back. WHOA

 

[quiter]

@wacdenney

"The last part is staying clean one day at a time. I know that sounds cliché, but it really is the way it is in the beginning. Every single day you make it without doing ---- it gets that much easier to get through the next day."

Yep and after awhile it's no longer a day to day struggle but becomes about getting through events. Things that come up that trigger a desire to use, for me it's stress or realizing that something that I used to look forward to is coming up. For instance in two weeks we have our local festival, I went to that festival and got drunk for forty years and I know that all my buddies will be there. It was one of the few days a year that I would get really smashed. I won't go to that one. I can handle some parties but not that one. Everyone there gets drunk and most of them don't know that I struggled to quit so I know they will be offering me drinks all night long. Small parties are not too bad for me because they are my friends who know I had a hard time quitting and they don't try getting me to drink and I don't spend half the night with one drunk after the other telling me that one won't hurt.

So for now I'm taking it one event at a time, staying away from big parties and trying to stay stress free helps.

 

[Zak Rabbit]

It used to. They changed it from "God" to "higher power".

That is incorrect, it's mentioned as "higher power" or "God, as we understood him" from the first publishing. It is a spiritual based program, not faith based. Read the book if you're able to conquer your "contempt prior to investigation."
I stayed away from aa for ten years believing it was a requirement to become Christian. Nothing could be father from the truth.

Sent via the guys that made Star Trek low tech.

 

[UntamedRose]

That is incorrect, it's mentioned as "higher power" or "God, as we understood him" from the first publishing. It is a spiritual based program, not faith based. Read the book if you're able to conquer your "contempt prior to investigation."
I stayed away from aa for ten years believing it was a requirement to become Christian. Nothing could be father from the truth.

Sent via the guys that made Star Trek low tech.

OK I'm not personally sure i buy that whole its a higher power vs god vs spirtitual.....but...but does it really help? Least according to the one source I pull above. 5% success rate with it...........(Maybe estimate as they refuse to share real records 5% is what they claim) VS.....a 5% without at all.
Sounds like(not to turn it into an cig thing) a cold turkey vs a gum rates......... both of which are piss poor and shouldnt be considered a success by any means.

 

[wacdenney]

..........

 

[Zak Rabbit]

OK I'm not personally sure i buy that whole its a higher power vs god vs spirtitual.....but...but does it really help? Least according to the one source I pull above. 5% success rate with it...........(Maybe estimate as they refuse to share real records 5% is what they claim) VS.....a 5% without at all.
Sounds like(not to turn it into an cig thing) a cold turkey vs a gum rates......... both of which are piss poor and shouldnt be considered a success by any means.

One of aa's traditions is that "we ought not be organised." There will be no statistics kept by aa as to "success rates." People who have been around a while will tell you "three out of a hundred will make it over the long-haul.
What people tend to not understand is that there is actual work involved in getting and staying sober in aa. I beseech anyone interested to read "the big book" if only to look for ammunition to scoff at the group.


Sent via the guys that made Star Trek low tech.

 

[dragginfly]

You're anecdotal evidence does not prove that AA is not faith based.

Your bias against religion is showing, Pav.

He did not say AA is not faith based.

The 12-Step Program is faith based prima facie...

"We came to believe..."

He does not need to "prove" anything. You do. You made the claim.

AA is a front for religion.

Where's your proof of this?

Surely you must have at least some anecdotal evidence to make such a claim.

 

[bassnut]

You start facing the emotions you've been running from. You start facing the people you've screwed over. You start to take on responsibilities. People have a stake in your life again. This, in a lot of ways, is really the hardest part.

This is exactly where a lot of my present suffering comes from - real or imagined.
I don't know which but in my condition it's real easy to give myself a pass.
Problem is half of them are dead. No doubt there's specific advice for that.
I'm putting a lot of that stuff on hold until I get sober, which of course is any day now.

 

[THETOTALLYCOOL]

Problem is half of them are dead. No doubt there's specific advice for that.

Absolutely, there is. But the steps are in an order for a reason. When you're ready, you take the first one. Then the next, and so on. It's not a race.

(and yeah, "work" the steps irks me a little bit. That phrase is not in the text. The steps are "taken.")