I don't need anecdotal evidence, when the factual evidence supports what I'm saying.
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I don't need anecdotal evidence, when the factual evidence supports what I'm saying.
What factual evidence do you speak of? Have you read the book? Read the first 164 pages and get back.
Sent via the guys that made Star Trek low tech.
You really have no idea what your talking about, the book "Alcoholics Anonymous" was written in 1939, the only thing that has changed since then is the personal stories in the back. You have proven that you are seriously ignorant but insist on telling others about it, that is just plain lying.
^ Actually, I think you are both correct. But since my desire is to promote the program for those who may need it, I'll just leave it at that.
Page 23 to current checked. Thank you to everyone still here. I'll reread everything and chime in soon.
All I can say right now, is that the road to recovery is literally a metamorphosis, and its beautifully complex, it can be full of constant disappointments, it can be full of constant victories, its got a language all it's own. Its a trip in and of itself. Its a maze. Its got layers, like consciousness has layers. I dont think anyone thats never gone through it could ever fully understand.
All I can say right now, is that the road to recovery is literally a metamorphosis, and its beautifully complex, it can be full of constant disappointments, it can be full of constant victories, its got a language all it's own. Its a trip in and of itself. Its a maze. Its got layers, like consciousness has layers. I dont think anyone thats never gone through it could ever fully understand.
Really?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/09/21/AR2010092106531.html
I stand by my initial assessment. It's a front for religion. The problems with that are that secular institutions are sentencing people convicted of DUIs to attend AA, even though doing that infringes on their freedom of religion (this happened to a close friend of mine who is an atheist and was offended at having to go to AA for this reason. He kicked the booze on his own and is doing well).
And here are the 12 steps right from the AA website.
http://www.aa.org/en_pdfs/smf-121_en.pdf
How anyone can say that's not religious is beyond me. It's instructing you that you're powerless (we're not) and to turn your life over to God.
If someone who is religious (or not) wants to willingly join and finds it works for them, then great. But we should not bow to theocratic tendencies by having our courts sentence people to have to attend. And we should also remember that many people tend to replace one addiction with another. GW Bush swapping alcohol (drugs) for religion is a good example of this imo.
That is an exceptionally awesome "tradition" from AA's standpoint. Higher power forbid they should actually prove their effectiveness.
The courts here only mandate that you get into a treatment program. They do not advocate for one program over another. One county south they actually will not accept AA as a viable treatment program. But I'm sure laws are wildly different across the nation.
Does AA Really Work?
I cant tell you How Many People have Asked Me this Question. You may be somewhat Shocked by this, but No, AA Doesnt work for Most People.
So why is this? Because as wacdenney pointed out (who BTW I am Gaining a New Found Respect for), if a Person has a Problem with their Drinking but does Not Want to Quit, Nothing is Going to Work. Nothing.
No $30,000 Rehab Center. No Get Well Cards from a Judge. No amount of Nagging from a Spouse. Or Encouragement from a Friend, Co-Worker or Boss. Nothing.
People come to AA for Many Different Reasons. Some come to AA to Cut Down on their Drinking but Not to Quit. Some will come to show Others that they are Doing Something about a Problem and to get People Off their Back. Other because they were Convicted of a DUI or similar Alcohol Related Offense and they Have To. Some go because they have heard that Other People have had Success with AA.
For these People, very Very Few have any Long Term Success in Quitting Drinking. Because Most of these People do Not Really Want to Quit Drinking. (I dont want to put numbers on these people, but if someone told me these were the 5-Percent-ers, it Wouldn't Surprise me.)
Drinking is a Exactly Like Smoking. If you Dont Want to Quit Smoking, youre Not Going to. You have to Want it. Want it on the Deepest Level. You have to Want to Quit 100%, from the bottom of your Heart and are Willing to go to Any Lengths to Achieve It Because if you Dont, Guess what Sunshine, it Aint Gonna Work.
But is that AAs fault? A Person doesnt Deep Down Inside Want to Quit, they go to AA and they Dont Quit, and so they Blame AA? Is AA Really to Blame? Is AA's Failure to Make a Person Quit who Doesn't want to Justification to make a Satirical Satire youtube video?
So who does it Work For?
Here is a Excerpt from Chap. 5 How it Works from the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous. It is one of the things that is Read at the beginning of Every Sanctioned AA Meeting for about the last 70 Years.
http://www.aa.org/pdf/products/p-10_howitworks.pdf
AA works for an Individual who Wants to Quit Drinking more than Anything Else. And who is Willing to Actively Pursue Sobriety on a Daily Bases. Notice that this is a TWO Part Condition. It Isnt Enough to just Want to Quit Drinking for Most People who go to AA. If it was, they would have Done It Already! And it doesnt Work if a Person does not Work the Program of AA.
I have seen Hundreds of People who have Lost EVERYTHING and Have Tried EVERYTHING with No Success achieve Sobriety. People who were Hopeless and Emotionally Bankrupt. People I wouldnt bet a Used Carto on being able to Succeed. But they Wanted to Quit. And were able to be Completely Honest with themselves and Actively Work the Steps of AA and to Practice AA Principles Daily in All their Affairs. And they Did Succeed.
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I was Going to Fire Off a Scathing OUTSIDE reply when you posted that Video. Because I thought it was Complete Garbage.
But instead, I hope this gives you some Perspective of AA in General thru my Opinion. The Perspective from an Active AA Member who has seen people get their Lives Back On Track.
And Not the Perspective of some Vegas Comedian who has an Axe to Grind.
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BTW Here is a Link to the Entire AA Big Book.
Big Book On Line - Table of Contents
If you Only Choose to Read one thing including Chap. 4, Please read the Paragraph on the Bottom of Page 63 an the Top of Page 64 in Chap. 5
Zak's reference comes from the 9th Tradition of Alcoholics Anonymous.
The A.A. Tradition
The 12 Traditions Short Form is also Read at the Beginning of Every Sanctioned AA Meeting.
You understand why Many Courts require people Convicted of DUI, or similar Alcohol related Offenses, to Attend AA don't you?
The will require someone to attend AA note for Recovery, but for Exposure.
The Courts Understand that a Person Can Not Be Helped if they do Not Want it. They Also know that Many (not All) People who are Convicted of a Crime such as DUI have a Drink Problem or May be in the Process of Developing a Drinking Problem.
So they send them to AA in the Hopes that if One Day if a Person decides that they Do Have a Problem, and are Willing to Seek Help Voluntarily, that they know what AA is and How it Works.
Step 1 Doesn't say that a Person is Powerless. The First Step says that "We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable."
Powerless over Alcohol has a Vastly Different Meaning to Me than saying a Person is Powerless.
Step 3 say "Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him."
"As We Understand Him" is a Very Powerful Statement.
If you believe in Christ, Great. If you believe in Budda, Great. If you believe that God manifests Himself in the Individuals who Attend the Rooms of AA, Great. If you believe that there is No God, that's Great Also.
Because what is Not in the Link you provided is the Sentence Directly before the 12 Steps.
"Here are the steps we took, which are suggested as a program of recovery:"
The 12 Steps are Actually a Suggestion by One Alcoholic as a Means by which They Obtained Sobriety.
If think if you would spend some Time to Read some of the "Big Book" and or the 12 Steps and 12 Traditions you would have a Great Perspective of what AA is all About.
That and I think if you Attended a Few Meetings you would Understand how any AA Meeting Works.
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I have. (to support others. I'm lucky enough to not have had to deal with alcohol addiction).
Here is an article in Scientific American
Does Alcoholics Anonymous Work?
For some heavy drinkers, the answer is a tentative yes
Does Alcoholics Anonymous Work?: Scientific American
"In 2006 psychologist Rudolf H. Moos of the Department of Veterans Affairs and Stanford University and Bernice S. Moos published results from a 16-year study of problem drinkers who had tried to quit on their own or who had sought help from AA, professional therapists or, in some cases, both. Of those who attended at least 27 weeks of AA meetings during the first year, 67 percent were abstinent at the 16-year follow-up, compared with 34 percent of those who did not participate in AA. Of the subjects who got therapy for the same time period, 56 percent were abstinent versus 39 percent of those who did not see a therapist—an indication that seeing a professional is also beneficial."
Does Alcoholics Anonymous Work?
For some heavy drinkers, the answer is a tentative yes
Does Alcoholics Anonymous Work?: Scientific American
"In 2006 psychologist Rudolf H. Moos of the Department of Veterans Affairs and Stanford University and Bernice S. Moos published results from a 16-year study of problem drinkers who had tried to quit on their own or who had sought help from AA, professional therapists or, in some cases, both. Of those who attended at least 27 weeks of AA meetings during the first year, 67 percent were abstinent at the 16-year follow-up, compared with 34 percent of those who did not participate in AA. Of the subjects who got therapy for the same time period, 56 percent were abstinent versus 39 percent of those who did not see a therapist—an indication that seeing a professional is also beneficial."
I don't want to make this a semantics debate, because my point was really
not about your claim itself, but a lack of anything to back it up. You made
a bold statement as though it was fact, and then chided another member
for providing anecdotal evidence to refute it.
It was ironic to me that you demanded evidence when giving none.
As to the claim, you seem pretty loose with your terms, swapping faith
with religion and "religious" quite freely. I submit there are differences.
Your links and "evidence" point out the "faith" in the program. Not religion.
Most 12 Step programs are faith based IMO.
It's NOT religious in the sense of supporting or promoting a particular religion.
"God" is not a religion.
Yeah... That's OK.
But I put More Faith in Penn & Teller than I do in some Upstart, Johnny-come-Lately Publication like Scientific American.
If Scientific American was for real, they would have Flashy Hollywood Produced youtube Videos don't you think?
You missed the point of "powerless" completely. If you read it again it says "we were powerless OVER ALCOHOL."
I also happen to be powerless over people, places and things.
There have been many rulings lately keeping people from being sentenced to AA meetings for just the reasons you've described. (There's a HUGE backlash of anything mentioning God or Christ. Had they mentioned Muhammad, Budda, or some other deity, there probably wouldn't be such controversy.)
Like I said in an earlier post, I was guilty of "contempt prior to investigation" just as you. I did quit drinking for 18 months on my own, yet I didn't find relief until I joined AA. I have thrown books away because they mentioned "God" too many times.
You quote an article which talks about the FIRST DRAFT of the book which was never actually published. Yes, Bill Wilson was firm in his Christianity, but it was changed so that the maximum number of people could be helped. Our country was founded by men firmly entrenched in their Christianity, does that mean the country as a whole is faith based?
Again, if you read the book, there is a whole chapter titled "To the Agnostic." For an example of a higher power, they use a light switch.
Best example I've heard was: "if you have a problem conceptualizing a higher power, go to the ocean and try stopping the waves from coming in."
There a lot of easy reasons to hate/belittle AA. There's only one to join. Simple as that.
It used to be if someone new came in, they'd hear "are you done yet? Because if you're not, here's $20. Go and get loaded, don't waste our time." "Sit down and shut up, for the first year you have nothing we want to hear because we KNOW how to get drunk." "Take the cotton out of your ears and stick it in your mouth!"
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Even if it is "a front for religion", it helps to keep some of those folks sober and, best part, I don't get it shoved down my throat, at least around here they leave you alone.
They have enough problems.
Side note, some of those 12 steps are damn good as is, even without pertaining to substances or religion. Make amends, practice humility, be good to people.
Speaking of 12 steps, anybody see that Passages Malibu commercial, with this Pax Prentis guy...he says "I was an addict for xx years, now I'm not"!
It doesn't work like that bro...
They have enough problems.
Side note, some of those 12 steps are damn good as is, even without pertaining to substances or religion. Make amends, practice humility, be good to people.
Speaking of 12 steps, anybody see that Passages Malibu commercial, with this Pax Prentis guy...he says "I was an addict for xx years, now I'm not"!
It doesn't work like that bro...
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The caps really make your posts hard to read. Why do you do that?
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