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SOBER VAPERS - Vaping Sober - ROLLCALL!

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BardicDruid

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    Obviously. Just about everyone you encounter who's in the program will either talk about their faith or lead an apology for the religion angle.
    After 21 years in the program, making meetings all over the country and going to conventions, I have never heard any of that. You're just like the other idiot, you'll lie just to make your point.
     

    zoiDman

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      This is weak bait. Part one is about getting the thread back on track. Part two is a direct challenge to keep it derailed.

      Once Again Surf. No one was Repelling to You.

      Why do you go Out of your Way to Pick Fights with People who Aren't even Posting at You?
       

      dragginfly

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        Obviously. Just about everyone you encounter who's in the program will either talk about their faith or lead an apology for the religion angle.

        Anecdotal evidence based on your experience?

        My own experience is quite the opposite. I've known many in AA, and none... NOT ONE...
        has talked about faith or religion.

        You and Pav are both way off on this one. Repeat it all you like. That does not
        make it true or factual in the least. Nothing but biased OPINION. Period.

        Critical thinkers should be better at removing bias before forming opinions.
         

        Surf Monkey

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          Once Again Surf. No one was Repelling to You.

          Why do you go Out of your Way to Pick Fights with People who Aren't even Posting at You?

          Oh! So people can ONLY reply to posts that are directed at them? Where was that in the rules again, z?

          "post at" That's awesome.

          Look, gentlemen. It's simple. Different people have different experiences. In the experience of Pav and myself AA tends to be very religion focused. To others it doesn't appear that way. But that doesn't give you carte blanc to start calling people idiots and liars. That's over the line no matter how you slice it.

          The best option would be to agree to disagree at this point. I'm not particularly invested in this fight, so I'll leave it to y'all to hash it out.

          And z? Your troll-bait post was still weak bait. Very, very weak.
           

          BardicDruid

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            And z? Your troll-bait post was still weak bait. Very, very weak.
            If anyone is a troll, you and Pav have proven yourselves as such. You're being here is just more proof, if you don't like AA, then why did you come here and start spewing BS?? Both of you kiddies need to grow up and learn some respect like the adults around here.
             
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            zoiDman

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              ...

              Look, gentlemen. It's simple. Different people have different experiences. In the experience of Pav and myself AA tends to be very religion focused. To others it doesn't appear that way. But that doesn't give you carte blanc to start calling people idiots and liars. That's over the line no matter how you slice it.

              ...

              You Never Been to an AA Meeting Surf. Or have even Read the Big Book or the 12x12. And the people who are Disagreeing with you are Active Members of AA.

              LMOA

              But yeah, your Right. Lets agree to Disagree.
               
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              quiter

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                Oh! So people can ONLY reply to posts that are directed at them? Where was that in the rules again, z?

                "post at" That's awesome.

                Look, gentlemen. It's simple. Different people have different experiences. In the experience of Pav and myself AA tends to be very religion focused. To others it doesn't appear that way. But that doesn't give you carte blanc to start calling people idiots and liars. That's over the line no matter how you slice it.

                The best option would be to agree to disagree at this point. I'm not particularly invested in this fight, so I'll leave it to y'all to hash it out.

                And z? Your troll-bait post was still weak bait. Very, very weak.


                Honestly why not simply step back and let this thread move on it's way? You are getting nothing out of this thread that you can't get on every other thread so why not go there for your catfights and leave these people alone?
                 

                wacdenney

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                  There is no denying the faith based origins of AA...

                  The Oxford Group was a Christian fellowship founded by American Christian missionary Dr. Franklin Nathaniel Daniel Buchman. Buchman was a Lutheran minister who had a conversion experience in 1908 in a chapel in Keswick, England. As a result of that experience, he founded a movement called A First Century Christian Fellowship in 1921, which had become known as the Oxford Group by 1931.

                  Buchman summed up the group's philosophy in a few sentences: "All people are sinners"; "All sinners can be changed"; "Confession is a prerequisite to change"; "The change can access God directly"; "Miracles are again possible"; and "The change must change others."[4]

                  The practices they utilized were called the five C's:
                  Confidence
                  Confession
                  Conviction
                  Conversion
                  Continuance

                  Their standard of morality was the Four Absolutes—a summary of the teachings of the Sermon on the Mount:
                  Absolute-Honesty
                  Absolute-Purity
                  Absolute-Unselfishness
                  Absolute-Love

                  In his search for relief from his alcoholism, Bill Wilson, one of the two co-founders of AA, joined The Oxford Group and learned their teachings. While Wilson later broke away from The Oxford Group, their teachings influenced the structure of Alcoholics Anonymous and many of the ideas that formed the foundation of AA's suggested twelve-step program.[5][6] Later in life, Bill Wilson gave credit to the Oxford Group for saving his life.[7]
                  History of Alcoholics Anonymous - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

                  That being said... The amount of "religion" I found myself subjected to at NA meetings seemed somewhat relative to who was hosting the meetings. The meetings hosted by churches definitely had a different feel than the ones hosted other places. At the end of the day, however, I'm not entirely sure what difference this makes. I certainly wouldn't call AA a front for religion. It all boils down to getting back out of it what you put into it. Depending on how you go about working the program it may or may not end up having some sort of faith element for you. I honestly think agreeing to disagree is the right idea because in the end, this distinction is really irrelevant. If you find a way to get clean, that's really all that matters.
                   

                  Big Juicy

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                    Obviously. Just about everyone you encounter who's in the program will either talk about their faith or lead an apology for the religion angle.

                    The above statement could not possibly be more false.

                    Also, to clarify terms here, AA is not "the program," it is a fellowship of people who have a desire to stop drinking. The "program" by definition is the 12 steps as outlined in the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous.
                     

                    Infernal2

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                      I'm of the mind, does it really matter if its a front for religion or not and I ask this as a staunch atheist and scientifically driven? As far as I know, AA, NA, Al-Anon, and the rest don't discriminate on a person's religious convictions or lack thereof as a matter of course and if that's the case, what bearing does it have on the conversation?
                       

                      Surf Monkey

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                        The above statement could not possibly be more false.

                        Also, to clarify terms here, AA is not "the program," it is a fellowship of people who have a desire to stop drinking. The "program" by definition is the 12 steps as outlined in the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous.

                        I already said my experience is anecdotal and that I agree to disagree.
                         

                        Surf Monkey

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                          If anyone is a troll, you and Pav have proven yourselves as such. You're being here is just more proof, if you don't like AA, then why did you come here and start spewing BS?? Both of you kiddies need to grow up and learn some respect like the adults around here.

                          Oh, brother. High strung much? You do realize that dropping in to admonish is just as much a derail?
                           

                          Surf Monkey

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                            Right. Because you were talking about yourself here...

                            Pretty much, diggin'. Sorry that bums you out, but it's true. I never claimed my statement was anything but opinion. When you asked I clarified. So, what are you complaining about exactly? Sounds a lot like SURFBADMAN! to me.
                             

                            dragginfly

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                              zoiDman

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                                Honestly why not simply step back and let this thread move on it's way? You are getting nothing out of this thread that you can't get on every other thread so why not go there for your catfights and leave these people alone?

                                I think quiter, that there are Just Some Questions that we as Humans will Never Know the Answers to.

                                At least not in This Lifetime.
                                 

                                Pav

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                                  If anyone is a troll, you and Pav have proven yourselves as such.

                                  I'm not trolling in the least. In fact, I didn't even criticize AA. I never said it didn't work or there were bad people running it. I simply stated it's religious basis. I think it's something someone who is choosing a recovery program might want to know about. Actually, it's very telling to me the amount of vitriol that has been unleashed over a simple statement highlighting what's at the core of this particular recovery program.
                                   
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