TC beyond Ni200: Nickel Purity, Dicodes; Ti, SS, Resistherm NiFe30; Coefficient of Resistance

[TheBloke]

Hahaha believe me it's appreciated! I'm sure there must be an expression/saying that describes it.. about fiddling with the tiny aspects while the major details are way off. I'm worrying about 0.1% differences in the probes and probably I'm going to find it's 10s of degrees inaccurate just trying to get the probe near enough to the coil!

Only one I can think of is "measure with a micrometer, mark with chalk, cut with an axe"

Lower range mate

In the upper 3rd of their range they will be +2 & upwards out , but see 5c is good to go

Ahh OK! So actually I want probes that have a higher limit, if I'm only measuring to 250°C? 1000°C probes are more accurate at 250°C than 260°C probes?

Well I bought four probes, the two Chinese-made 3mm probes which I think are 700 - 1000°C, can't remember where exactly, then the UK made bare wire ones at 260°C. I can compare them against each other.. not that I will know which is right

Anyway if you're confident of +/- 5°C that's all I need to know.

I emailed the makers of the bare wire probes, told them I had bought two of them and described what I was doing and asked a few questions - like could they make me a probe that was non-conductive. We'll see if they get around to responding. I was honest and told them that I wasn't going to be sending huge orders their way, maybe another 4 probes max! So it's mostly out of the goodness of their hearts if they decide to spend any time helping

 

[Shawn Hoefer]

Wet dream?

Taste Your Juice | THE CAT’S DNA IS OUT OF THE BAG…

200 watt TC from Evolv with software access...

 

[Almighty]

Wet dream?

Taste Your Juice | THE CAT’S DNA IS OUT OF THE BAG…

200 watt TC from Evolv with software access...

good news !

 

[Quantum Mech]

Wet dream?

Taste Your Juice | THE CAT’S DNA IS OUT OF THE BAG…

200 watt TC from Evolv with software access...

Oh noooo

@retird & @dr g are going to have major bragging rights when this is released

Best I keep a look out for pre-orders & this will fit in my VF as an upgrade

If not VF , VS , Hana or a mod builder gets my bucks

Edit: I have now seen DNA40 vs SX350j | Page 26 | E-Cigarette Forum so I will be waiting for the SX350 V250

 

[tchavei]

Oh noooo

@retird & @dr g are going to have major bragging rights when this is released

Best I keep a look out for pre-orders & this will fit in my VF as an upgrade

If not VF , VS , Hana or a mod builder gets my bucks

Why? These are bad news for them. Have you seen the board? It looks like the 350j and G man said more than once the 350j sucked because it wasn't mod friendly. Now the dna 200 must suck too because the board is as big and clumsy as the 350j and worse, the screen is still hanging of the board making it a nightmare to align properly under that surf sized board. I'm pretty sure he is really unhappy now. I feel for him

We should think of something to cheer him up.

Regards
Tony

Sent from my keyboard through my phone or something like that.

 

[Quantum Mech]

Why? These are bad news for them. Have you seen the board? It looks like the 350j and G man said more than once the 350j sucked because it wasn't mod friendly. Now the dna 200 must suck too because the board is as big and clumsy as the 350j and worse, the screen is still hanging of the board making it a nightmare to align properly under that surf sized board. I'm pretty sure he is really unhappy now. I feel for him

We should think of something to cheer him up.

Regards
Tony

Sent from my keyboard through my phone or something like that.

If it was not for the IP of firing & resetting the screen on release we might have seen a cease & desist order flying over from China

 

[TheBloke]

Science biatches, SCIENCE!








So far in my (very brief) testing the 3.0mm stick probe has proved to be useless for measuring (response time way slow), except it makes a perfect handle for the bare wire probe to get right inside the coil Of course arguably any stick would do that, but shh, this is a £7 stick of which I have two - I am going to use it! I will continue testing with the probe, maybe with the right size coil (this was only fractionally bigger than 3.0mm so it was too tight to get right inside) and waiting for it to warm up, it might be useful. If not, they might be useful for measuring liquid or something - and at the least I can use them to pre-test things (slowly) to confirm they don't exceed the 260°C / 500°F limit of the bare wire probe.

I tried for ages to get a good pic of the probe inside the coil, but it's impossible with my crappy camera and doubly so at night. Here's the best I can do, showing where it goes into the coil - imagine that probe wire extending about half way into the coil, and then the end as close as I can get it to the middle of the coil without actually touching:

This one is blurry as all hell but you can get a better view of the wire probe (which looks green under the flash), going close to the top edge of the coil - it's the middle of the roof of the coil that I'm nearly touching:

Anyway, v early days, but setting my Dicodes to 205°C with a twisted wire Resistherm coil with TCR 320 it hovered around 205°C like a champ.

It did however shoot a bit over at the start of each fire, I suspect the result of it starting firing at its configured wattage into an already warm coil, before it could back off. I think it peaked at 215°C at one point. I only had it set to 25W for this, so it'll be interesting to see how much it over-shoots at the max of 80W.

Next step is to get it logging to the PC so I can make graphs!

Oh and some actual testing of accuracy, especially on the SXK

 

[TheBloke]

In other news, last night I finally made myself a somewhat accurate external ohms reader.

Fat Daddy Vapes v3 Shorty, 1.5mm copper shielded wire, two gold-plate banana plugs, and my UNI-T DMM. Oh, and a cable tie and my Helping Hands, of course.




It may not be the prettiest, or the most stable, but it is now an independent ohms reference I can use Generally it reads identically to the Dicodes, except for the Magma build in the picture where it read 0.33Ω to the Dicodes' 0.34Ω.

The FDV v3 shorty was originally intended to replace the fixed pin in my Waidea, but I think this is a far better use of it!

I also have two crocodile clip leads, also on gold-plated banana plugs (my prior passion for Hi Fi has finally paid off) which I can use for testing bare wire/coils.

I do plan to make some kind of stand/case for the ohms reader, as cool as "floating atomizer" might be in principle

 

[tchavei]

You're becoming scary, man :/

Congrats

Now get us some dna 40 Ti wire temperatures so we can finally understand the real offset

Regards
Tony

Sent from my keyboard through my phone or something like that.

 

[TheBloke]

You're becoming scary, man :/

Congrats

Now get us some dna 40 Ti wire temperatures so we can finally understand the real offset

Thanks

Would love to, if you or anyone will lend me one already installed in a mod, or offer to fit the chip I bought into an actual mod Otherwise it might have to wait a little while, sorry Last night I soldered two wires into that FDV Shorty and it took me an hour to get it neat and I was very proud. It was the first time I have ever soldered something that was useful. So I am not quite sure I'm ready for a whole chip. Not to mention needing to buy a better soldering iron than the £6-from-a-supermarket piece of crap I have atm..

 

[tchavei]

Thanks

Would love to, if you or anyone will lend me one already installed in a mod, or offer to fit the chip I bought into an actual mod Otherwise it might have to wait a little while, sorry Last night I soldered two wires into that FDV Shorty and it took me an hour to get it neat and I was very proud. It was the first time I have ever soldered something that was useful. So I am not quite sure I'm ready for a whole chip. Not to mention needing to buy a better soldering iron than the £6-from-a-supermarket piece of crap I have atm..

I can solder you the chip no problem. Do you have a casing for it? Or what do you need exactly?

Regards
Tony

Sent from my keyboard through my phone or something like that.

 

[vapealone]

There's now a number of mods out, or coming out, that will allow easy vaping with wires other than Ni200 ....

Very good posts.
If you don't mind, I would like to add a few more thoughts:

Resistherm NiFe30 - a new wire being launched by Dicodes

Currently only available in Germany, but it will come to the UK soon I was told: Dicodes Wire Resistherm (NiFe30) für den PIPELINE PRO 2 - für eZigaretten

Well, there are many places you can find this alloy, though under different names.
It is also known as NIFE70, NiFe70/30, Alloy120, Nifethal70 just to name a few.

The chemical compositions vary a bit but they are basically all the same.
However, depending on the Cr content (I guess) the TCR can be different.
My 26 and 28ga wires happen to be sold as Alloy120 and its TCR is around 0.0045.
They perform as they should, the only problem that I had to buy it from the wire company with a minimum order amount of $50. Hence, the immense reels in my bottom drawers will last forever.

Especially that I switched to Ni/Kanthal Hybrid Claptons as you can build a nice, low wrap count TC coils about it.
If it wasn’t covered here you may want to check this. With purity settings the possibilities are even bigger.
If it was already covered, sorry. I have tried to read all the pages but failed

Few more things:

The R=f(T) curves are never linear. Ni is pretty close but still not. No big deal as we dont really need extreme precision neither deadly accuracy. But IMO good to know.

The curve of other materials (i.e. NiFe -FeNi) can be very non-linear. I have checked a few when I was flirting with NiFe 52 and NiFe 48 (number refers to Ni content) and I think it was the NiFe 48 or NiFe 42 which flattened to horizontal within our temp range too much for my liking (i.e. basically lost its ability to change its resistance any higher)

As far as I can recall, the default TCR listing is meant to be used between 20-100C partially because the above. There is no absolute way to compute TCR out of any properties of the material but they determine it by measurement. And it is more accurate within this 20-100 range. E.g. using the same formula you listed I get results different to the datasheets manufacturers provide.Because the formula gives a line but measured data gives a curve. But as I said, no big deal.​

Bottom line: Data gained from a datasheet with measurement based temp factors (like the Nifethal above) are probably more accurate than calculations based on TCR.


Thank you again for your post. Hope you didn’t mind me smartassing around.
Also hope that you didn’t mind either if I share it everywhere

 

[TheotherSteveS]

Very good posts.
If you don't mind, I would like to add a few more thoughts:

Well, there are many places you can find this alloy, though under different names.
It is also known as NIFE70, NiFe70/30, Alloy120, Nifethal70 just to name a few.

The chemical compositions vary a bit but they are basically all the same.
However, depending on the Cr content (I guess) the TCR can be different.
My 26 and 28ga wires happen to be sold as Alloy120 and its TCR is around 0.0045.
They perform as they should, the only problem that I had to buy it from the wire company with a minimum order amount of $50. Hence, the immense reels in my bottom drawers will last forever.

Especially that I switched to Ni/Kanthal Hybrid Claptons as you can build a nice, low wrap count TC coils about it.
If it wasn’t covered here you may want to check this. With purity settings the possibilities are even bigger.
If it was already covered, sorry. I have tried to read all the pages but failed

Few more things:

The R=f(T) curves are never linear. Ni is pretty close but still not. No big deal as we dont really need extreme precision neither deadly accuracy. But IMO good to know.

The curve of other materials (i.e. NiFe -FeNi) can be very non-linear. I have checked a few when I was flirting with NiFe 52 and NiFe 48 (number refers to Ni content) and I think it was the NiFe 48 or NiFe 42 which flattened to horizontal within our temp range too much for my liking (i.e. basically lost its ability to change its resistance any higher)

As far as I can recall, the default TCR listing is meant to be used between 20-100C partially because the above. There is no absolute way to compute TCR out of any properties of the material but they determine it by measurement. And it is more accurate within this 20-100 range. E.g. using the same formula you listed I get results different to the datasheets manufacturers provide.Because the formula gives a line but measured data gives a curve. But as I said, no big deal.​

Bottom line: Data gained from a datasheet with measurement based temp factors (like the Nifethal above) are probably more accurate than calculations based on TCR.


Thank you again for your post. Hope you didn’t mind me smartassing around.
Also hope that you didn’t mind either if I share it everywhere

That is really fantsatsic. Thanks for the great info!!

 

[TheBloke]

@vapealone this is awesome info, thank you very much! I am still digesting it all.

Some quick questions:

1. Is that your post on the Hybrid Claptons @ FT?
2. Do you have any info on the impact to TCR of Ni200 when it is curved as per the Kanthal/Ni200 hybrids? Eg if the base TCR is 0.006, but then one twists the wire with Kanthal, can one approximate a different TCR and if so with what calculation?
3. Your confirmation on the other versions of Resistherm is fantastic. I love using Resistherm, but it has one huge disadvantage - only available up to 0.28mm / 29G. I see Alloy120 is available in any size. Can you tell me where you got yours, and in what sizes?
4. Can you explain why you prefer the Ni200/Kanthal hybrids versus, for example, Alloy120? I know that a Clapton is a great coil design - but why not for example make a Clapton from Alloy120 + Kanthal? Or Alloy120 + Alloy120 in varying sizes? Or is it just according to what materials you happen to have easy access to?
   1. That FT post on hybrids makes the point about resistance differences, Ni200 v Kanthal, and how this needs to be accounted for - this makes me think other wires, with higher base resistance, would be a more suitable choice; as well as being easier to work with.
5. Great info on the curves, thank you. Yes I have been realising that they are never linear, but have still been assuming that they are generally flat. Dicodes claims that Resistherm and Ni200 are so little curved to be 'ignored'. But Evolv claim that they have special programming for the curve of Ni200. I read a 1959 detailed article on Titanium which showed a very slight curve but so slight up to about 500°C that it can easily be ignored.
6. Please do share it everywhere

Now that the DNA 200 has been announced there will be lots more interesting work we can do, because with the DNA's PC software, we can actually program in the TCR curves. So we could take discrete measurements across the temperature range and program this in for any wire.

I hope the arrival of the 200 will increase interest in use of other-wires for TC.

 

[TheBloke]

Actually re question 2, I see now the Google Sheet on the FT post basically gives the info to work this out, by giving the ratio of resistance rise @ 100, 200, 300°C versus normal Ni200. That can be used to give a TCR

is that your Google sheet? If not, do you know who made it?

 

[vapealone]

@TheBloke

Thanks for the feedback. Now I try to answer.

1. Yep. This post is my fault.
2. My understanding is that you can define your own TCR if you like. You just have to use the R@given temp data from the table and solve your formula to TCR. I think, during the weekend I will play a bit with it, for the fun of it and update the table. But, as I said, I don't really care much with the TCR. Because, for this table I used Kanthal (Sandvik)'s Ni200 data as reference. And if I use their TCR (0.0049 I think)it is good at 100% than getting off. If I use 0.006 than it is good at 200C but gives higher factor @100 and lower at 200C. So probably I will need to calculate a TCR range
3. I have bought from resistancewire.com, 28 and 26AWG and a total of 1000feet And the bill was pretty steep due to the premium international post option they could offer. Man, the freight costed more than the wire.
4. Because of the following

• I can have quite high resistance out of a hybrid even with the relatively high gauges I am using ATM. When I have some 32ga on hand I will built a quad TC setup I will even try to do something similar to this tight beauty. I will need 32/32 or a 32/34 Clapton and a Zephyrus but worth the try.
• The Clapton is massive and easy to work with. IMO easier than Kanthal. Let alone Alloy120, which is way softer than Kanthal though more user friendly than Ni.
• You can buy Kanthal and Ni200 everywhere, anytime
• I love Claptons massive surface area (~1.5-2.2 times bigger than a standard wire of same diameter)
• That is the only way for me to get my preferred vapor out of the present atomizers. I don't do high watts but the new things need it on standard wire. On Claptons though they can be dialed down. Or sky-high if that floats your boat

Edit: please ignore my answer to #2 as you already answered it

 

[vapealone]

@TheBloke

and the sheet is my fault too

 

[TheBloke]

I can solder you the chip no problem. Do you have a casing for it? Or what do you need exactly?

Sorry Tony missed this last night. Firstly, that's very generous of you but I wouldn't want to ask you to take too much time.

The situation is that I have a Waidea VF clone with its Rayn board, and I planned to put the DNA 40 genuine chip in there, along with a FDV Shorty v3 spring loaded pin. I've since used the FDV for my ad-hoc ohms meter so I'd need to get another one.

So I have a dual battery case from which I need to remove the existing sled, and then wire up the new board and fit it. I'm sure I can get the old board out and fit the new one, it's the careful soldering of the wires to the new board that has me worried because I don't have a good iron, little experience with soldering, and these connections I assume need to be particularly good because it needs to be a reliable TC reference.

I don't know how long it takes a good solderer to do the soldering, maybe it's only half an hour or so of your time? But even if you could do it quickly so that I wouldn't feel too bad, the postage to Portugal and back would probably take two weeks So I think I should just 'man up' and have a go myself, maybe if I get a good soldering iron it won't be as hard as I've found it so far.

Thank you very much for the offer though!

 

[TheBloke]

@vapealone that's awesome, thanks. I hope you will stick around and continue to discuss this with me/us That spreadsheet is excellent.

Effects on TCR of twisting Ni200/Kanthal

Tell me, have you done any studies on the effect on TC of twisting wire? Like whether the TCR varies when wire is twisted versus straight? There was a post in the Wire/Wick section of this forum talking about temperature adjustments needed for twisting Ni200 and Kanthal - similar to your Claptons, except for making normal coils. All its figures were in inches and I have not yet spent the time converting it to metric to try and understand its findings.

Your spreadsheet indicates varying temperature adjustments needed for the Claptons, what I don't yet follow is how this is calculated? With a Kanthal/Ni200 twisted coil, the electricity should always follow the Ni200 because it is the path of least resistance. But your chart shows very different temperature response depending on how much Kanthal v Ni200 is used. I don't think it can be based on the resistance of the Kanthal - because the electricity should follow only the Ni200 - so maybe it's based on the effect on heat distribution across the coil?

But I still don't quite understand - because the Ni200's resistance rise is directly related to its temperature rise. If the Ni200 heats up to X°C, its resistance should rise to YΩ. So why is this different when there is 'slave' Kanthal in there? Even if the extra weight of Kanthal metal causes the Ni200 to cool down, that should simply result in the Ni200's resistanec not rising as much - and the temperature measuring should still be accurate?

TLDR: What are you thoughts on why your graph showing Pure Ni200 versus Clapton Hybrid shows the Claptons having lower temperature:resistance response than the pure? Why is it not the same TCR as for pure Ni200? I did not think it could be based on the resistance of the Kanthal, so maybe it is based on the twisting of the Ni200 affecting something?

Here is the Ni200/Kanthal Twisted Wire spreadsheet that was made for another thread. And here is that thread, which has been inactive a while (I should contact the author, @flog and invite him here): Twisted Ni 200 and Kanthal, correcting the DNA 40 temperature setting (Unfortunately his posts use a lot of tables which are now broken on the latest forum software upgrade, so it is hard to see what he was describing in posts - but it should be the same as in the spreadsheet.)

Alloy 120

I made some enquiries for Alloy 120 today. I got a quote of $50 from Resistance Wire, but he didn't mention how much shipping to the UK would be. I assume terribly expensive!

Can you tell me how much yours was (I take it you are in Germany or somewhere else in Europe?)

I also found another site, Pelican Wire, but they only have 29G which is the same as Resistherm, and their prices are terrible - minimum $50 for which you only get 50 feet - Resistance Wire are selling 900 feet / 275m for that price!

I emailed a UK company but they have not responded yet - it's possible they are not interested in tiny orders.

I did think maybe I should get that 275m and try and resell some - the trouble is, as no-one has heard of it, and so few have TCR-adjusting mods, I can't imagine who would buy it yet!

 

[tchavei]

Sorry Tony missed this last night. Firstly, that's very generous of you but I wouldn't want to ask you to take too much time.

The situation is that I have a Waidea VF clone with its Rayn board, and I planned to put the DNA 40 genuine chip in there, along with a FDV Shorty v3 spring loaded pin. I've since used the FDV for my ad-hoc ohms meter so I'd need to get another one.

So I have a dual battery case from which I need to remove the existing sled, and then wire up the new board and fit it. I'm sure I can get the old board out and fit the new one, it's the careful soldering of the wires to the new board that has me worried because I don't have a good iron, little experience with soldering, and these connections I assume need to be particularly good because it needs to be a reliable TC reference.

I don't know how long it takes a good solderer to do the soldering, maybe it's only half an hour or so of your time? But even if you could do it quickly so that I wouldn't feel too bad, the postage to Portugal and back would probably take two weeks So I think I should just 'man up' and have a go myself, maybe if I get a good soldering iron it won't be as hard as I've found it so far.

Thank you very much for the offer though!

It's no trouble at all and regardless of time, I actually enjoy soldering so if you want, my offer still stands. Heck, if you want, I can only solder the wires to the board which is usually the trickiest and you can then safely try soldering the wires to the buttons and connectors. There is no chance for you to burn something on the buttons or connectors so you could play away without worrying.

It's like you prefer.

I could also lend you my mod but as I reported on another thread, today wasn't a good day... I accidentally threw my mod 9 feet across a room, hit a metal table leg and it had still enough energy stored to rebounce twice on the ground. Board is fine but my screen has now a few garbled vertical lines... And I can't even blame Evolv lol. Man, some accidents are unbelievable and if it didn't happen to me, I wouldn't believe it.

The display works but I can't assure you all resistance digits are well readable. There is a funny matrix on the major digit :/

Regards
Tony

Sent from my keyboard through my phone or something like that.