The Deeming and Other Stuff

[WereBear]

Risking the anger of MODs or diminishing my reputation here...

Now that the FDA is making their move and it looks like vaping may be going underground it makes me wonder if this MB will be more accepting of the "other stuff" subculture. I understand the reasons for not wanting vaping to be seen in the same light as other more illicit activities but if the FDA and ANTZ have their way we will all be in the same boat. In fact it may be possible that vaping will be taking "other stuff's" place in the closet as it is gaining more acceptance and may be more legal than vaping in the near future.

As someone who has been riding the underground railroad for a quarter century due to chronic pain issues, I think as vapers we could learn a lot about the black market (buying nic on the Silk Road?) or expedient methods (can you make a PV out of an apple?) or even guerrilla horticulture and chemistry for DIY NET. At the very least our "other stuff" brethren have a great deal of experience in riding out the political storm and working to gain acceptance. Just something to think about.

 

[LarryYo]

I am right with you on this one have been also riding in the underground railroad recently just to see how else i can medicate.

 

[Alien Traveler]

No. Not the same boat. Vaping will not be prohibited. Taxed, limited in many ways, but not prohibited.

 

[Jdurand]

I am right with you on this one have been also riding in the underground railroad recently just to see how else i can medicate.

Isn't the underground railroad kind of obsolete in California? And Colorado and Washington state, and more to follow?

But I do get what the OP means. While I don't know if it will get THAT extreme, I could see it getting as extreme as black market and Indian reservation cigarettes have become.

 

[Baditude]

Vaping will always be around, but perhaps not in the way we have become accustomed to.

Big Tobacco has their ducks in a row with their Blu, Vuse, and other e-cigs which will easily pass FDA regulations. Only a couple of battery models and a few e-liquid flavors to pass approval.

The other stuff in the vaping industry, maybe not. No juice delivery devices, no battery devices, no bottled e-liquid.

My biggest fear is prohibition of open container e-liquids (the way we buy e-liquids currently) and prohibition of flavors other than tobacco or menthol flavors. E-liquid may only be available in closed, tamper-proof containers in cartomizers like Blu and Vuse use. No more candy or fruit flavors, because "they attract children to try them".

Current plans by the FDA will require each specific vape item to go through an expensive individual approval process. Most vape shops and online vendors will not be able to afford this process, and the FDA would not be equipped to tackle such a task anyway. This will put most vape businesses out of business.

And don't think that you can just buy your items over-seas or online. If prohibited by the FDA, US Customs will hold all vape supplies at the loading docks. Anyone been vaping long enough to remember 2007? Customs held vape supplies for months and most vape suppliers were never able to recover their supplies or their business.

All vapers must read the sticky above this page National Call to Action and write/call their politicians, if we are to have any hope to prevent Vape Prohibition. Join CASAA; the link is in my sig.

There is a petition to the President and administration. It, of course, concerns the deeming regulations.
We need 100,000 signatures by Nov. 26th. We currently only have around 8,300 or so.
Please have a look. If you do sign please be sure to verify through the email they send otherwise your signature will not count.

http://bit.ly/FDAPetition

Edit: Currently at 20,000 signatures. There's still time to add yours.

 

[Jdurand]

And don't think that you can just buy your items over-seas or online. If prohibited by the FDA, US Customs will hold all vape supplies at the loading docks. Anyone been vaping long enough to remember 2007?

Aw c'mon Bad, Customs holding up all vape supplies. If you thought for a minute that was possible, the war on "other stuff' would have been over decades ago. Tougher to get yes, impossible or even over the top too expensive, I just don't see it. JMHO

 

[Baditude]

Aw c'mon Bad, Customs holding up all vape supplies. If you thought for a minute that was possible, the war on "other stuff' would have been over decades ago. Tougher to get yes, impossible or even over the top too expensive, I just don't see it. JMHO

I've talked to suppliers who went through the last prohibition several years ago. As I said, most couldn't get their supplies from US Customs for months, which was long enough to decimate their business. They were never able to get their supplies even though a federal court ordered the FDA to stop the prohibition and come up with a new plan. Well, you can read what their new plan is now, and it hasn't changed from the first prohibition.

Vaping is banned altogether in Singapore. Haven't you read those threads here on ECF. Customs finds the majority of vape items purchased, and consumers can actually be put in jail if caught with them.

Big Tobacco and the Pharmaceutical Industry are losing a lot of money due to the vaping industry. They are more organized with their political action committee's and have bigger pockets. The vaping industry is not as organized nor do they have as big of pockets.

What about all the B&M stores, online suppliers, and juice manufacturers?

If the juice manufactures cannot pay the 2 million dollars per flavor and strength, they would be forced to go out of business because they are not FDA approved.

The stores will have little to sell, eventually, the overhead will be greater than the revenue forcing it to be closed.

 

[WereBear]

I've talked to suppliers who went through the last prohibition several years ago. As I said, most couldn't get their supplies for months, which was long enough to decimate their business. They were never able to get their supplies even though a federal court ordered the FDA to stop the prohibition and come up with a new plan. Well, you can read what their new plan is, and it hasn't changed from the first time.

The problem is you need to change your paradigm. When they outlaw vaping then only outlaws will be vaping. Gotta think like an outlaw...

 

[Jdurand]

I've talked to suppliers who went through the last prohibition several years ago. As I said, most couldn't get their supplies for months, which was long enough to decimate their business. They were never able to get their supplies even though a federal court ordered the FDA to stop the prohibition and come up with a new plan. Well, you can read what their new plan is, and it hasn't changed from the first time.

I don't have the same faith you have in the government to enforce regulations on stuff like this. Not saying you are wrong, just hoping you are! Short term, yes they can create havoc in the industry, but now with enough warning, secondary supply chains will be discovered and utilized when the time comes. I do regret that the American businessman/woman will be cut out of the picture. Guess this is just another creative way the government sends our jobs overseas.

 

[Baditude]

The problem is you need to change your paradigm. When they outlaw vaping then only outlaws will be vaping. Gotta think like an outlaw...

Although I'm often a non-conformist, I refuse to be an outlaw.

 

[bluecat]

I don't have the same faith you have in the government to enforce regulations on stuff like this. Not saying you are wrong, just hoping you are! Short term, yes they can create havoc in the industry, but now with enough warning, secondary supply chains will be discovered and utilized when the time comes. I do regret that the American businessman/woman will be cut out of the picture. Guess this is just another creative way the government sends our jobs overseas.

The government is wanting one thing. Absolute control. I would be surprised if they want to control all jobs and then hand out to the peasants. Sadly it is slowly slowly progressing to that.

 

[WereBear]

Although I'm often a non-conformist, I refuse to be an outlaw.

Maybe it's just my Aspie ODD talking (Hi Ax!) but to me laws that make sense need to be followed while nonsense laws need to be creatively bypassed.

 

[Jdurand]

The government is wanting one thing. Absolute control. I would be surprised if they want to control all jobs and then hand out to the peasants. Sadly it is slowly slowly progressing to that.

And every time in history this occurs, a revolution of some kind is sure to follow. I still have faith in humanity to fight tyranny.

 

[Baditude]

...to me laws that make sense need to be followed while nonsense laws need to be creatively bypassed.

When was the last time the government made a decision that made sense?

The FDA is using studies that were made several years ago, and which have since been proven to be flawed.

Saying that candy and fruit flavors should be prohibited because they attract children to try them. Well, Mr. FDA, adults like fruit and candy flavors too.

Wanting to prohibit open container e-liquids because consumers can't be trusted to not add harmful ingredients or keep them out of reach of children. Really?


Please do your homework folks before spouting out your personal opinions folks, which won't count once the FDA makes their decision.

 

[tj99959]

I don't believe we have the right to pick & choose which laws we will obey. That leads to anarchy. There are proper ways to disagree with a law.

Yes I believe regulations have become overreaching , but the original intent for having regulations has to be preserved.

 

[WereBear]

When was the last time the government made a decision that made sense? ...(snipped)
Please do your homework folks before spouting out your personal opinions folks, which won't count once the FDA makes their decision.

Brother, I've done my homework for the last 25 years. Prohibition is prohibition whether it's alcohol, "other stuff", or e-juice and PVs. As long as you are careful and creative you can survive it.

 

[Baditude]

Brother, I've done my homework for the last 25 years. Prohibition is prohibition whether it's alcohol, "other stuff", or e-juice and PVs. As long as you are careful and creative you can survive it.

Well, when you find a source to buy liquid nicotine for a fair price after the regulations pass, please let me know.

This will be the one item that will be very difficult to get. Big Tobacco has been quietly buying out the manufacturers of liquid nicotine that e-liquid manufacturers use. And if they own most of the liquid nicotine available for sale, they can set the price to be too high for e-liquid manufacturers to make a profit.

 

[WereBear]

I don't believe we have the right to pick & choose which laws we will obey. That leads to anarchy. There are proper ways to disagree with a law.

I agree that we need to work to change bad laws but that doesn't mean I won't do what I need to survive in the meantime.

 

[PoliticallyIncorrect]

No. Not the same boat. Vaping will not be prohibited. Taxed, limited in many ways, but not prohibited.

I think it's very likely nicotine will become a controlled substance in much the same manner as the "other stuff."

 

[WereBear]

Well, when you find a source to buy liquid nicotine for a fair price after the regulations pass, please let me know.

This will be the one item that will be very difficult to get. Big Tobacco has been quietly buying out the manufacturers of liquid nicotine that e-liquid manufacturers use.

Whole leaf tobacco+vg+slow cooker=NET

Won't be as "pretty" as store bought but it will do the job.