LOL! That is a wedge chopper used with lemons and limes. It is bar related, not juice related! Funny!
The Flavor Apprentice Flavoring Thread
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Hahahahahaha haha!!!!!!!! I just KNOW it couldn't be a juice thing but for the life of me I could NOT figure out what it actually WAS lol[emoji106]
I'm telling you... I saw that in the pic the 1st time and I've wanted to know all this time [emoji779] [emoji779] [emoji779] [emoji779]
Wow! Taking this kinda personal, Tepid? Remember, I never addressed my views, my opinions to you, for the record...as you say.
Ok Tepid. Let's just say you're right, ftm. Your juice tastes bad day one and you have to steep it, then it tastes good....wonderful. Fine. I used to believe this too. I was just as bamboozled by misinformation as everyone else, and it set my juice making back six months. It was not good advise for me....and I think a lot of people give up on DIY before they ever get started because of this non-sense. I am here to de-mystify the process, so new juice makers can get on with making good juice, not continue this veil of secrecy. I once drank the kool-aid too.
By the way, feel free to quote me, but please don't twist my words. You keep doing this and it's annoying. Quote me, then attack. That's fair, right?
By the way, we're not trying to ferment anything or achieve a chemical change in our flavoring you know. This is NOT chemistry 101. We're mixing flavorings. Who would buy a smoothie that took two months to drink? We are NOT trying to make wine, beer or alcohol here, either, which very much is a chemical change, a flavor change, and the creation of alcohol change....a very different process, indeed. We're simply mixing flavors. This is the cake batter, so to speak, far easier than baking a cake.
Yes flavor bonding is not instantaneous. It takes hours, not weeks, hours. Most people don't use air tight bottles, and caps are not air tight. Over time, flavor will dissipate and so will nicotine. That's how bad changes to good, the offending flavors dissipate, versus the alternative, i.e., just make it good from day one. I now use air tight reagent bottles, so my juice does not change substantially over time, nor do I want it to. If yours is changing, then perhaps try some air tight containers. These are pretty good:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008FRFLS6/ref=wms_ohs_product?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Not only do I not want a chemical reaction with oxygen, I want my juice to flavor bond, and then freeze, and I don't want it to ferment in the presence of yeast, as you are suggesting when you compare it to wine and beer. I don't need it to steep over weeks, nor does it need it. Juice does improve slightly with age. Age and steeping are not the same. If the flavoring has to chemically change in the presence of oxygen (how you're defining steeping, as I understand it), to taste good, I believe that's a bad batch.
I will grant you that aged juice does taste better to me than new juice day one. But new juice day one has not fully formed flavor bonds. Does this take weeks? Not for me. Is juice better a month later. I would have to say sometimes it is a little better. Not every time and not by much, but yes. Aging does this to some juices. I know a few of the national well-known juice makers. Everyone knows their juice. Several of them have explained the requirement for bonding, not steeping over a long time, and over time, I was able to confirm the hypothesis that long steep times to make good juice is unnecessary as we're not trying to achieve a chemical change, only a flavor bond, requiring hours. I appreciated that advise, and my juice has improved as a result of it. In some cases, I had to reformulate recipes to make them taste right on day one. It was a big epiphany for me about 18 months ago.
I know your experience is different. All I can say is God Bless, my friend. I wish you well. You lurk here and try and find things you disagree with, and then pounce. Good for you. I come here, share with others and try and help them, give away what most juice makers carefully guard as trade secrets. Honestly, I expected more flack. If it truly took 8 weeks to make a juice, how could any layman/hobbyist do it? Mix....wait 8 weeks....taste test...miss. New mix....8 weeks...taste test....miss. I describe an 800 drop process which would take 16 months to make a single juice on your two month steeping time time schedule. My juice is great in 30 minutes....yet, "I'm wrong." Yours takes two months, and "You're right?" Really? Seriously?
Why don't you post your best recipes here, so we can all learn from your experience. If you truly have something worth sharing and valuable, and I'm sure you do, I would appreciate hearing about it. We can just agree to disagree...be civil and polite. I won't bring it up again, you can think I'm wrong, and that's fine...I'm a big boy, and life will just go on. You in? I'm serious. We'll be friends who disagree about an item that doesn't really matter, and we'll both respect one another and try and help others. You in? Your call....I'll be wrong, ok?
Edit: By the way, Tepid, please don't take my belief about a particular method to be a personal attack on you, because it wasn't, my friend.....
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Moving on, today's recipe is:
Fruit Loops
Lot of ways to make this one, and many of them quite good. I like to go for the milky sweetness at the bottom of the bowl (dulce de leche) with strong fruit flavoring.
Cherry - 9%
Raspberry - 8%
Orange cream - 1%
Dulce de Leche - 2%
I've had trouble getting that crunchy raw cereal flavoring (a secondary flavoring?), and I've not seen a recipe yet that can get that for me, nor have I been able to make one. So, I go for the milky sweet side with the primary flavorings. Flavor and sweeten to taste. One of the few recipes which I absolutely did not think required additional sweetener, but sweeten to taste. Ciao~ 
Fruit Loops
Lot of ways to make this one, and many of them quite good. I like to go for the milky sweetness at the bottom of the bowl (dulce de leche) with strong fruit flavoring.
Cherry - 9%
Raspberry - 8%
Orange cream - 1%
Dulce de Leche - 2%
I've had trouble getting that crunchy raw cereal flavoring (a secondary flavoring?), and I've not seen a recipe yet that can get that for me, nor have I been able to make one. So, I go for the milky sweet side with the primary flavorings. Flavor and sweeten to taste. One of the few recipes which I absolutely did not think required additional sweetener, but sweeten to taste. Ciao~
Well that's an interesting suggestion Mike! I've not heard about this little trick. Thank you! What happens to the mix with the gummi's added? Must get a completely different flavor, right? Sounds great!
Well that's an interesting suggestion Mike! I've not heard about this little trick. Thank you! What happens to the mix with the gummi's added? Must get a completely different flavor, right? Sounds great!
Not sure I would put it that way. I would say it's the difference between grape and grape candy when added to a mix. Another example would be what sweet and tart does to a mix. It adds a bit of tang in lower %
Gummy candy does have a taste but it's not a good one. Just like sweet and tart, that has a flavor but it's not very good either. I hate to throw out % because I think in a cinnamon red hot (very strong flavor) I would prob go around 5-6% with gummy candy. Normally I add 2-3%
Now there are 2 gummy candies I have both but I think the "PG" version is better. More true to gummy bears than the other. TFA explains the difference on their site. Hope this helps!!!
By the way, we're not trying to ferment anything or achieve a chemical change in our flavoring you know. This is NOT chemistry 101. We're mixing flavorings. Who would buy a smoothie that took two months to drink? We are NOT trying to make wine, beer or alcohol here, which very much is a chemical change and a flavor change, and creation of alcohol....a very different process. And you say I'm wrong!
American Educational Clear Flint Glass 500mL Wide Mouth Reagent Bottle with Ground Glass Stopper (Bundle of 5): Science Lab Reagent Bottles: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific
Not only do I not want a chemical reaction with oxygen, I want my juice to flavor bond, and then freeze, and I don't want it to ferment in the presence of yeast, as you are suggesting when you compare it to wine and beer. I don't need it to steep over weeks, nor does it need it. If you truly believe that your juice needs to steep for weeks and months...
Great point (and post). We're talking about solution of expectantly complementary chemistry here. Either they ere or they eren't. Rank from the get go is not a good sign. And optimism thereafter sheer speculation. Potential of improvement is quite another. It has to be there.
I was smart enough to start using reagent bottles early. Couldn't have done the variety of juice blends for the research I've done otherwise. So love 'em, can't live without 'em for their versatility, utility and their reliable preservation of the integrity of their contents. Now that I'm DIY more frequently, invaluable.
Thanks for the tip Bill. You're the man.
Good luck.
Great point (and post). We're talking about solution of expectantly complementary chemistry here. Either they ere…or they eren't. Rank from the get go is not a good sign. And optimism thereafter sheer speculation. Potential of improvement is quite another. It has to be there.
I was smart enough to start using reagent bottles early. Couldn't have done the variety of juice blends for the research I've done otherwise. So love 'em, can't live without 'em for their versatility, utility and their reliable preservation of the integrity of their contents. Now that I'm DIY more frequently, invaluable.
Thanks for the tip Bill. You're the man.
Good luck.
Thank you MTV. Always a friend in time of need! Just sharin' and havin' a nice time here. Love to see you stay for a while, buddy! If anyone knows, you know all about ideas that fly in the face of "convention!" LOL!!
I have been lurking in this form for awhile, I used to participate in TFA flavor threads but have since went to FA flavors so I really haven't been confident enough to participate here but I think I will....anyway I just wanted to add my 
and say something about steeping and flavoring this is 101
Single Flavor Mixes:
When you mix a single flavor and the percentage you mix it at is too low compared to the base you won't taste it until it binds with the base which dominate the mix. This is where needing to steep is necessary.Steeping is the waiting of chemical molecules to bind and the process of binding happens faster with heat (speed steeping). Re-doing your mix and raising the flavor percentage to its optimal level will allow you to shake and vape without the need for steeping. If it taste good or not depends on the flavor itself and the quality and taste of the base (all nic, pg, & vg are not created equal).
Multi Flavor Mixes:
The same premise about binding, but this time your flavors will also bind and create a totally different flavor or taste (for better or worse). You have to use your dominate or top flavor at the highest percentage and all other flavors lower to compliment your top note or dominate flavor. These multi flavored mixes may taste good at the start but once they begin to fully bond it may taste bad.and it doesn't take that long for the bonding to take place a day or so depending on the volume you mixed. a 3mil bottle will fully develop before a 30mil (common sense).this is why the golden rule is mix small batches.
I said all of this to say
Citric Acid This additive changes the bonding receptors of chemicals (or PH levels) at low doses, at high dosages it also adds a sour note to your mix. If you use Citric Acid it will allow your flavors to stay in their own lanes by changing the flavor concentrate molecule receptors. Binding only occurs when 2 like substances (flavor concentrates) come in contact with each other and they fight for dominance.. So the effect of citric acid changes the structure so that the molecules cant combine (inhibitor).. So if you mix apple with cherry you will have an apple cherry e-liquid instead of a apchely (apple-cherry combined) e-liquid and you will taste more apple or more cherry compared to each other depending on their strength in the mix. This additive will also allow you to mix at higher percentages to taste your juice right away without worrying about steeping or molecule binding when mixed at the proper percentage.
So you both are right...
Bill uses Citric Acid and he mixes at high percentages and he doesn't have to worry about steeping all he has to worry about is if he mixed the right percentage for it to taste good when mixed.
Tepid mixes at low percentages and waits on the steeping/combing process for it to mature and bond. But if you have to wait 8 weeks then your flavor percentages are too low or you are making 100ml of tobacco juice at a time
The only thing about Citric Acid is its safety for use and proper usage percentages in a mix Bill already shared how he uses it (I think).
Now before I get flamed or called a pseudo scientist here's a couple of references:
Enzyme Inhibition
Flavor enzymatic synthesis UAB Barcelona
and say something about steeping and flavoring this is 101Single Flavor Mixes:
When you mix a single flavor and the percentage you mix it at is too low compared to the base you won't taste it until it binds with the base which dominate the mix. This is where needing to steep is necessary.Steeping is the waiting of chemical molecules to bind and the process of binding happens faster with heat (speed steeping). Re-doing your mix and raising the flavor percentage to its optimal level will allow you to shake and vape without the need for steeping. If it taste good or not depends on the flavor itself and the quality and taste of the base (all nic, pg, & vg are not created equal).
Multi Flavor Mixes:
The same premise about binding, but this time your flavors will also bind and create a totally different flavor or taste (for better or worse). You have to use your dominate or top flavor at the highest percentage and all other flavors lower to compliment your top note or dominate flavor. These multi flavored mixes may taste good at the start but once they begin to fully bond it may taste bad.and it doesn't take that long for the bonding to take place a day or so depending on the volume you mixed. a 3mil bottle will fully develop before a 30mil (common sense).this is why the golden rule is mix small batches.
I said all of this to say
Citric Acid This additive changes the bonding receptors of chemicals (or PH levels) at low doses, at high dosages it also adds a sour note to your mix. If you use Citric Acid it will allow your flavors to stay in their own lanes by changing the flavor concentrate molecule receptors. Binding only occurs when 2 like substances (flavor concentrates) come in contact with each other and they fight for dominance.. So the effect of citric acid changes the structure so that the molecules cant combine (inhibitor).. So if you mix apple with cherry you will have an apple cherry e-liquid instead of a apchely (apple-cherry combined) e-liquid and you will taste more apple or more cherry compared to each other depending on their strength in the mix. This additive will also allow you to mix at higher percentages to taste your juice right away without worrying about steeping or molecule binding when mixed at the proper percentage.
So you both are right...
Bill uses Citric Acid and he mixes at high percentages and he doesn't have to worry about steeping all he has to worry about is if he mixed the right percentage for it to taste good when mixed.
Tepid mixes at low percentages and waits on the steeping/combing process for it to mature and bond. But if you have to wait 8 weeks then your flavor percentages are too low or you are making 100ml of tobacco juice at a time
The only thing about Citric Acid is its safety for use and proper usage percentages in a mix Bill already shared how he uses it (I think).
Now before I get flamed or called a pseudo scientist here's a couple of references:
Enzyme Inhibition
Flavor enzymatic synthesis UAB Barcelona
I have been lurking in this form for awhile, I used to participate in TFA flavor threads but have since went to FA flavors so I really haven't been confident enough to participate here but I think I will....anyway I just wanted to add my
Single Flavor Mixes:
When you mix a single flavor and the percentage you mix it at is too low compared to the base you won't taste it until it binds with the base which dominate the mix. This is where needing to steep is necessary.Steeping is the waiting of chemical molecules to bind and the process of binding happens faster with heat (speed steeping). Re-doing your mix and raising the flavor percentage to its optimal level will allow you to shake and vape without the need for steeping. If it taste good or not depends on the flavor itself and the quality and taste of the base (all nic, pg, & vg are not created equal).
Multi Flavor Mixes:
The same premise about binding, but this time your flavors will also bind and create a totally different flavor or taste (for better or worse). You have to use your dominate or top flavor at the highest percentage and all other flavors lower to compliment your top note or dominate flavor. These multi flavored mixes may taste good at the start but once they begin to fully bond it may taste bad.and it doesn't take that long for the bonding to take place a day or so depending on the volume you mixed. a 3mil bottle will fully develop before a 30mil (common sense).this is why the golden rule is mix small batches.
I said all of this to say
Citric Acid This additive changes the bonding receptors of chemicals (or PH levels) at low doses, at high dosages it also adds a sour note to your mix. If you use Citric Acid it will allow your flavors to stay in their own lanes by changing the flavor concentrate molecule receptors. Binding only occurs when 2 like substances (flavor concentrates) come in contact with each other and they fight for dominance.. So the effect of citric acid changes the structure so that the molecules cant combine (inhibitor).. So if you mix apple with cherry you will have an apple cherry e-liquid instead of a apchely (apple-cherry combined) e-liquid and you will taste more apple or more cherry compared to each other depending on their strength in the mix. This additive will also allow you to mix at higher percentages to taste your juice right away without worrying about steeping or molecule binding when mixed at the proper percentage.
So you both are right...
Bill uses Citric Acid and he mixes at high percentages and he doesn't have to worry about steeping all he has to worry about is if he mixed the right percentage for it to taste good when mixed.
Tepid mixes at low percentages and waits on the steeping/combing process for it to mature and bond. But if you have to wait 8 weeks then your flavor percentages are too low or you are making 100ml of tobacco juice at a time
The only thing about Citric Acid is its safety for use and proper usage percentages in a mix Bill already shared how he uses it (I think).
Now before I get flamed or called a pseudo scientist here's a couple of references:
Enzyme Inhibition
Flavor enzymatic synthesis UAB Barcelona
Couldn't agree more. Nice explanation about what appears to be a controversial subject. Yes I do use high flavor mixes, nothing less than 20%, nor more than 30%, and it is good right out of the can, and does not require steeping, as you said. Many thanks for weighing-in! Exactly matches my experience. More often than not, steeping revealed a less than desirable juice much later down the road, and high flavoring percentages revealed it at mixing. Not a fan of long steeping times as a result, and it did hurt my efforts for a very long time. And yes, I do use a miniscule amount of citric acid in my mixes, but I get very similar results without it. Where have you been, lol!
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LOL, I come to this thread all day everyday like an old man with a trench coat outside a playground but I must say that you have shared a great amount of information and everyone here should be thankful for your contributions I know that I am...But like i said in my post I stopped using TFA exclusively so I can't post here because all the TFA recipes in the "TFA recipes only" thread is so massive there's a recipe for everything (almost) thanks to the user: paddymix.
A lot of people have been brainwashed with the 20% limit not knowing that the 20% limit really is for single flavor mixes. Just mix to taste you will find out soon enough if your taste buds can handle the percentage or not. 8% TPA French Vanilla is good to me, but on the other hand another flavor might be weak for me at 8% and I might have to use 15% like I do with TPA watermelon. Everyone's taste buds have a blowout limit and when you exceed it you get no taste your buds get confused. I use CA myself at small percentages so I don't acquire the sour note but just for the PH balance.
Well thanks again for all the work and insight you have provided this is one of the best threads on TFA flavors especially since everyone starts out by buying TPA/TFA as their first flavor company it should help a ton of people
A lot of people have been brainwashed with the 20% limit not knowing that the 20% limit really is for single flavor mixes. Just mix to taste you will find out soon enough if your taste buds can handle the percentage or not. 8% TPA French Vanilla is good to me, but on the other hand another flavor might be weak for me at 8% and I might have to use 15% like I do with TPA watermelon. Everyone's taste buds have a blowout limit and when you exceed it you get no taste your buds get confused. I use CA myself at small percentages so I don't acquire the sour note but just for the PH balance.
Well thanks again for all the work and insight you have provided this is one of the best threads on TFA flavors especially since everyone starts out by buying TPA/TFA as their first flavor company it should help a ton of people
I see I am not the only person who looks at someone's pics and notices the other stuff instead of just what was being "shown." lol I wondered what that was as well.
Couldn't agree more. Nice explanation about what appears to be a controversial subject. Yes I do use high flavor mixes, nothing less than 20%, nor more than 30%, and it is good right out of the can, and does not require steeping, as you said. Many thanks for weighing-in! Exactly matches my experience. More often than not, steeping revealed a less than desirable juice much later down the road, and high flavoring percentages revealed it at mixing. Not a fan of long steeping times as a result, and it did hurt my efforts for a very long time. And yes, I do use a miniscule amount of citric acid in my mixes, but I get very similar results without it. Where have you been, lol!
Bill, could you explain to me exactly how you mix your citric acid? And how much you add? Please and Thank you!
Does anyone know of a place with all of the TFA vanilla types and how they are the same/different in one post/page/site? I know I can see individual descriptions, but I am not sure where to use each or which would be better for this or that type juice.
I did this Debi not too long ago. I'm in a rush to leave town so I can't find it at the moment, but it's here somewhere. It's not as important as one would think from some of the posts, and I don't add it when taste testing at all.
I don't know if there's a manual anywhere, or not. I've just used them in taste testing. I can say that Vanilla Swirl in your friend, but I do use them all. Best!
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