Titanium wire, vaping and safety
- Thread starter TheotherSteveS
- Start date
- th_trl_thread_readers 0
- Status
Well my current Ti build is a Ti core kanthal clapton. So it tends to hold a little more water or liquid in its creases. That's why I would imagine I'd need to pulse it a little after rinsing to dry it.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I'm using the method from our Hungarian friend.
On a dna 200, I set the 8th profile to a TCR of. 007 (double than real Ti tcr) and temperature to 300C (which will be actually around 550-600C). I then happily pulse the coil which will glow dark orange to burn off the crud without oxidizing the coil too much (no white powder).
Working great
I've been using Ti for a few weeks, and I have couple of questions/observations regarding stuff I've read on this (great) thread:
Ti oxidizes (TiO2) at room temperature, and oxide film crystalizes into anatase at ~276C (which is within normal vaping range). Above ~718C the oxidation layer changes into pure rutile ("flaky" layer of white/silver spots). However, all of this is TiO2, so why do people think only dry-burning Ti is unsafe? Is there a concern that rutile layer (if formed) will break off and one would inhale it?
Also, regarding dry-burning - I personally do it at 300C (I'm lazy, and this is max for my mod without changing TCR), but some people do it at higher temperatures (like the post quoted above), but rutile sub-layer forms above ~457C. Since it is "wrapped" in anatase, it will not break off - so is the general consensus that this is safer than having pure rutile on the coil?
Just trying to understand why the consensus seems to be that TiO2 layer is only unsafe when formed at higher temperatures (is it just because it "looks" different, or are there concerns with rutile in general)...
(my numbers are from Oxidation kinetics of commercially pure titanium )
EDIT: looks like I can't post a link, but google search should find this paper
Last edited:
I'm not a metallurgist, but will tell you what I have learned from metallurgists in this thread.
Ti does oxidize at room temperature. The oxide layer is extremely thin and stable and remains so until a color change is noted. Gold and blue colors seem to indicate a relatively safe layer of oxide. It's when the oxide layer turns grey that problems can develop. In that case it is thick enough to begin to flake off which is exactly what we don't want to happen.
The whole titanium oxide is cancerous is also a big question. The "major study" that is most often cited was on one individual who was exposed to a Ti dust/oxide laden environment for years with not respiratory protection and developed lung cancer. That study seemed to ignore the fact that he was also a cigarette smoker fro a long time as well.
Given the longevity of titanium coils and the relatively low cost of titanium wire, I don't bother dry burning, I just replace the coils.
Ti does oxidize at room temperature. The oxide layer is extremely thin and stable and remains so until a color change is noted. Gold and blue colors seem to indicate a relatively safe layer of oxide. It's when the oxide layer turns grey that problems can develop. In that case it is thick enough to begin to flake off which is exactly what we don't want to happen.
The whole titanium oxide is cancerous is also a big question. The "major study" that is most often cited was on one individual who was exposed to a Ti dust/oxide laden environment for years with not respiratory protection and developed lung cancer. That study seemed to ignore the fact that he was also a cigarette smoker fro a long time as well.
Given the longevity of titanium coils and the relatively low cost of titanium wire, I don't bother dry burning, I just replace the coils.
I didn't adjust the tcr at all on my xcube 2
Titanium alloys are used in virtually every gas turbine engine as high pressure compressor blades and disks for many thousands of hours with temperature excursions to 1200-1300F (649-704C) during each take off power excursion. The diffusion kinetics of oxygen in titanium predominate over oxide formation kinetics at these temperatures so that growth in the oxide thickness is slow and a large percentage of the oxygen goes into solution in a thin layer of the metallic substrate near the surface of the part. This layer can become a brittle stabilized alpha layer with time and over-exposure to high temperatures can result in a so-called alpha case. This alpha enriched substrate layer eventually limits the life of the component based on changes in high cycle and/or low cycle fatigue life. There is no "flaking" of oxide from these components detected at any time during their service life. The oxide thicknesses at surfaces for components exposed to these conditions is measured in microns and is tightly adherent during the components entire service life.
The conditions of exposure of Grade 1 commercially pure titanium in our coils is extremely mild compared to these highly stressed turbine engine components.
If anyone is interested in thermal exposure information for titanium in gas turbine engines I suggest a library search of the scientific literature. Most of this is in technical libraries that is not yet cataloged for internet access.
The sky is definitely NOT falling on folks who properly apply titanium coils in vaping. It seems that every couple days someone decides that they have discovered a new scientific truth. That's to be expected when there is so much generalized data on the web and so little relevant understanding of the total body of the scientific literature.
It would be appropriate for those who believe they see cracks in the sky for a given material to research the potential alternatives to that material and describe why one material is technically superior or safer than another. That takes quite a lot of work but it's more responsible than cherry picking without understanding.
It is also important to understand that concern for inhalation of titanium oxides has been primarily based on exposure of laboratory animals to VERY high concentrations of oxide dust for extended periods. Similar results have been found for laboratory animals exposed to much lower levels of silica dust and to naturally occurring dust from blowing soil.
As an aside, I am extremely aware of this phenomena given that I live in southern Arizona and Haboobs are very common during the summer "monsoon" season. There is currently a case under consideration where the state of Arizona has been financially penalized for environmental air standards transgressions as result of natural summer storms.
It is also important to understand that there are is only one documented case of lung disease in humans exposed to environmental contamination by titanium oxides either in titanium metal processing facilities or in manufacturing environments for paint, paper and toothpaste etc. all of which depend strongly on use of high concentrations of titanium oxides. The one documented case was for a gentleman who also was a heavy smoker for many years.
There is a theoretical potential for high aspect ratio nano particles of any material to cause lung disease however the morphology of formation on titanium in ambient air at high temperatures is in the form of much larger flakes and never has been found to exhibit nano particle characteristics.
There is also the potential for allergies to any material to be developed and there are documented cases of allergies to titanium dental and osteo implants although at lower rates than for alternate metallic materials. Titanium is generally considered to be one of the lowest bio allergenic materials along with gold and the platinum metals.
Each of us has the opportunity to select the materials we use in our daily life and my personal selection may or may not be similar to the selections someone else makes. I would however hope that all of us make our decisions based on relevant scientific data and not misunderstood person to person rumor.
Duane
Last edited:
I never dry burn my Ti, just scrub clean with a toothbrush, nylon, brass, and SS small brushes when needed. A coil lasts me until I get tired of it because I want to experiment with something else. I never had a Ti coil that went bad other than breaking a leg due to rough handling or post issues. Some coils I have had running for over 3 months so far and they still don't need replacing.
Thanks a lot Duane,
What I have found in research on oxidation characteristics of titanium is in line of what you are saying, so I was a bit confused why many on ECF advise against exposing titanium coils to high temperatures. There hasn't been any research on vaping highly oxidized titanium coils (or any coils for that matter), but from what evidence I have seen so far, I don't have any concerns from titanium coils oxidized at temperatures up to ~700C.
Even above that temperature, I doubt there is any health risks (based on the current research), but the oxidized layer is pure rutile and the roughness of oxidized surface does increase (although this probably just increases gunk on the coil rather than causes health concerns). I try to avoid those temperatures when dry burning the coils, but I don't throw a coil just because it glowed red for a couple of seconds.
What I have found in research on oxidation characteristics of titanium is in line of what you are saying, so I was a bit confused why many on ECF advise against exposing titanium coils to high temperatures. There hasn't been any research on vaping highly oxidized titanium coils (or any coils for that matter), but from what evidence I have seen so far, I don't have any concerns from titanium coils oxidized at temperatures up to ~700C.
Even above that temperature, I doubt there is any health risks (based on the current research), but the oxidized layer is pure rutile and the roughness of oxidized surface does increase (although this probably just increases gunk on the coil rather than causes health concerns). I try to avoid those temperatures when dry burning the coils, but I don't throw a coil just because it glowed red for a couple of seconds.
If you were going to dry burn it with the SXMM, Ti that is, I know you would have to use power mode but what wattage would be safe to do it with. I think it goes down to 5w or 10w not sure which. I know it says it won't fire that low of resistance but it will. I've fired the NiFe coils that are .19ohms at 15w. Would like to try it but don't want to over do it.
The major reason I see not to dry burn to conditions which cause oxide flaking from the coil is that the oxide we wash away after the dry burn consumes some of the titanium so the coil becomes thinner and the resistance changes. Remember also that oxygen diffusing into the titanium surface helps formation of a brittle layer which can cause earlier fatigue failure. Heating and cooling a metallic item causes dimensional changes by thermal expansion and this results in fatigue stresses at pinned interfaces. Hence a coil might fracture earlier after long service life or during a wick change.
In my opinion there's never a reason to use higher temperature and time exposure than that required to clean the organics from a surface. This can generally be accomplished at 900-1000F or less in very short periods of time.
I don't see a health hazard of any sort with dry burning titanium at conditions required to remove organics and I see nothing positive about thermal exposure at temperatures higher than required to remove the organics.
Folks who are worried that the mistreated rats forecast our future are comfortable with avoiding flaking oxides and since that's consistent with longer and more stable coil life I certainly wouldn't argue with them.
Duane
I'm not trivialising the potential dangers of overburning Ti wire but there are easier ways of getting hold of TiO2..
500g Titanium dioxide food grade★E171★white powder★TiO2
Food grade!!
I absolutely agree with Duane and look at it from the perspective of common sense. If you put a Ti coil on a mod and dry heat it to glowing red/yellow, it will go white and that white is TiO2. I have done it and the pics are somewhere early on in this thread. The simple solution is just not to do that. If in doubt and if you think you have overdone it, junk the coil and make another one!!!
Also, as far as toxicity is concerned, and again reiterating Duane's earlier point, TiO2 is classed as a potential carcinogen, purely because if you lock a bunch of mice in a box and fill the box with TiO2 dust for a long period of time, some of them end up with lung and respiratory tract tumours. There are people working with this stuff on a daily basis and still only one example of disease in a heavy smoker. Again, common sense. Ive said this before but if anyone has sanded down a wall painted white, they have exposed themselves to more TiO2 particles than will ever be encountered in a lifetime of vaping even without being careful!
500g Titanium dioxide food grade★E171★white powder★TiO2
Food grade!!
I absolutely agree with Duane and look at it from the perspective of common sense. If you put a Ti coil on a mod and dry heat it to glowing red/yellow, it will go white and that white is TiO2. I have done it and the pics are somewhere early on in this thread. The simple solution is just not to do that. If in doubt and if you think you have overdone it, junk the coil and make another one!!!
Also, as far as toxicity is concerned, and again reiterating Duane's earlier point, TiO2 is classed as a potential carcinogen, purely because if you lock a bunch of mice in a box and fill the box with TiO2 dust for a long period of time, some of them end up with lung and respiratory tract tumours. There are people working with this stuff on a daily basis and still only one example of disease in a heavy smoker. Again, common sense. Ive said this before but if anyone has sanded down a wall painted white, they have exposed themselves to more TiO2 particles than will ever be encountered in a lifetime of vaping even without being careful!
Last edited:
Thats the point. TiO2 is used in everything. The overall industrial exposure to it must be massive yet there is precious little medical litereature suggesting it is a problem for inhalation. Probably no worse than any other kind of dust to be honest...
So you've "over done" dry burning your Ti1 coil and it now looks white - oh what to do?
Sorry, I simply doused it with a stream of tap water and after 1-2 quick shakes to remove most of the excess water I had a nice and BLUE/Gold coil staring me in the face.
I don't know about the rest of you but I went onto wicking and using it. Why toss it and start over?
What I'm a missing here?
Sorry, I simply doused it with a stream of tap water and after 1-2 quick shakes to remove most of the excess water I had a nice and BLUE/Gold coil staring me in the face.
I don't know about the rest of you but I went onto wicking and using it. Why toss it and start over?
What I'm a missing here?
I use Ti G1 exclusively in my STM RBA's. When lazy or trying a new mystery juice I use a Kanger pre-made coil, but they only sell those TC/TL in Nickle.
Been curious why Kanger had not as of now, made or sold a TITANIUM coil.
I use a Delta Ti coil in my Morph tank, it's been in there over a month and is wonderful! So some companies do offer Ti in premades.
Been curious why Kanger had not as of now, made or sold a TITANIUM coil.
I use a Delta Ti coil in my Morph tank, it's been in there over a month and is wonderful! So some companies do offer Ti in premades.
We Brits invented sarcasm...
No problem with re-using it if you are happy, just that the wire is getting structurally eroded each time this happens is all. If the oxide is gone, no problems.
Early on I was dryburning too hot. Hotter than necessary at 20w. Brought down the power to 7-8w and only the faintest signs of white powder appear (could just be ash, hard to tell). A quick toothbrushing and rinse brings the coil back to like new condition. I stop using them when they start flaking but that only happens when I'm not paying attention and accidentally dryburn at vaping wattage.
I use an old toothbrush to clean my coils. It probably puts more Ti02 on my coil than it takes off from residual toothpaste.
Just kidding.....or aaaaam I?
I use 7-8 watts too as a dry burn power for my 3mm 24 gauge Titanium coils. Even with that low power level I only use short pulses and the coils seem to clean up perfectly.Early on I was dryburning too hot. Hotter than necessary at 20w. Brought down the power to 7-8w and only the faintest signs of white powder appear (could just be ash, hard to tell). A quick toothbrushing and rinse brings the coil back to like new condition. I stop using them when they start flaking but that only happens when I'm not paying attention and accidentally dryburn at vaping wattage.
I use an old toothbrush to clean my coils. It probably puts more Ti02 on my coil than it takes off from residual toothpaste.
Duane
I've found Zivipf shipping to be pretty quick. Faster than most orders from Europe.
Duane
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
