Titanium wire, vaping and safety

[Giuseppe.bio]

Wow! Lots of good discussion here. And very good arguments, too. Not a wasted word.
I like your explanations about micro coils' micro climate

Reading about legs of the coil's contribution to heating (almost zero, I agree with you), it came to my mind the trick I used when soldering a diode or transistor (old analog electronics era): to retain the leg to be soldered with pliers, between the diode and the soldering point so heat would not get into the diode and destroy it. Pliers sinks nearly all heat at that point so the diode was protected.
Posts would act the same at that part of the coil.

 

[Giuseppe.bio]

Maybe it is a good moment to ask this (I hope it is not offtopic)

Since we have changed the coils from "standard" dry burned kanthal coils to spaced, cold setup Titanium coils, we have noticed that wick gets darker inside the coil with Ti build than with kanthal, as if the wick was a little toasted.
Of course, not any dry puff and not noticeable change in flavour.
Same eliquid used (just 50-50 6mg unflavoured base), same cotton, Kayfun 5 RTA.
iStick pico setup is about 15-20w @ 260°C (500°F)

It is something strange for me, because TC control seems "safer" in terms of wick heating, so wick should not be overheated, in case it was.
Just a pic to show the coil after 5 days of regular use:

Maybe it's just a mater of learning to build good coils.
Any ideas are welcome

 

[TheotherSteveS]

@TheotherSteveS, it just occurred to me after rereading your post that you were referring to my comments about overtemping, not ramp time. I guess I typed a lot for nutt'n.

Yes, I agree with you. Small variations in wrap spacing would not cause over temping.

That was what I meant but your typing was not for nothing. Its actually a really good description of what is going on. Nice one sir!!

 

[cigatron]

Maybe it is a good moment to ask this (I hope it is not offtopic)

Since we have changed the coils from "standard" dry burned kanthal coils to spaced, cold setup Titanium coils, we have noticed that wick gets darker inside the coil with Ti build than with kanthal, as if the wick was a little toasted.
Of course, not any dry puff and not noticeable change in flavour.
Same eliquid used (just 50-50 6mg unflavoured base), same cotton, Kayfun 5 RTA.
iStick pico setup is about 15-20w @ 260°C (500°F)

It is something strange for me, because TC control seems "safer" in terms of wick heating, so wick should not be overheated, in case it was.
Just a pic to show the coil after 5 days of regular use:
View attachment 634665
Maybe it's just a mater of learning to build good coils.
Any ideas are welcome

Your coil symmetry is excellent Giuseppe! Nicely done.

The center of your coil is over temping a little. With TC the mod doesn't know that the center of your coil is drying out more than the ends and thereby getting hotter; it's only looking for a total rise in resistance from cold res to TFR (temperature factor of resistance) based on your temp setting.
Could be that your coil length:diameter ratio is too high causing most of the juice to be used up before reaching the center of the coil. Try taking a few wraps off your build, say 7 wraps instead of 10. That will definitely help even things out.
Could be 500°f is too high of a temp setting. Are you using a DNA mod? I'm usually at around 420°f with my DNAs.
Could be under or over wicked as well. Doesn't look like it though.

 

[Giuseppe.bio]

Thanks a lot cigatron for your ideas. It makes a lot of sense.

I'll try 7 wraps and see.
We use 2.5 mm rods to make the coils, I forgot to mention. And the resistance the mod reads is about 0,47 ohm.
The mod is not usig DNA technology I'm afraid, it is an Eleaf product which I think I've read uses Joyetech chips.
The Eleaf iStick Pico we use has TC over Ti, Ni and SS and also TCR setups.
And, as per PBusardo review, this mod signals slightly higher temp in the display than the actual temp at the coil, when in Ti mode, which may explain the need to rise to 260°C to get a decent puff.
Anyway, we try to maintain the temp as low as possible.

We'll put an eye on wicking too

Will feedback

 

[cigatron]

Thanks a lot cigatron for your ideas. It makes a lot of sense.

I'll try 7 wraps and see.
We use 2.5 mm rods to make the coils, I forgot to mention. And the resistance the mod reads is about 0,47 ohm.
The mod is not usig DNA technology I'm afraid, it is an Eleaf product which I think I've read uses Joyetech chips.
The Eleaf iStick Pico we use has TC over Ti, Ni and SS and also TCR setups.
And, as per PBusardo review, this mod signals slightly higher temp in the display than the actual temp at the coil, when in Ti mode, which may explain the need to rise to 260°C to get a decent puff.
Anyway, we try to maintain the temp as low as possible.

We'll put an eye on wicking too

Will feedback

Is that 26 or 28awg Ti you're using?

 

[TheotherSteveS]

Thanks a lot cigatron for your ideas. It makes a lot of sense.

I'll try 7 wraps and see.
We use 2.5 mm rods to make the coils, I forgot to mention. And the resistance the mod reads is about 0,47 ohm.
The mod is not usig DNA technology I'm afraid, it is an Eleaf product which I think I've read uses Joyetech chips.
The Eleaf iStick Pico we use has TC over Ti, Ni and SS and also TCR setups.
And, as per PBusardo review, this mod signals slightly higher temp in the display than the actual temp at the coil, when in Ti mode, which may explain the need to rise to 260°C to get a decent puff.
Anyway, we try to maintain the temp as low as possible.

We'll put an eye on wicking too

Will feedback

The relationship between the set temp and the actual temp varies all over the place depending on wire type and the mod (and probably a bunch of other things) I am running a perfectly good NiFe48 microcoil on the pico with the right TCR in and i have it at ~240C. It's not a problem but certainly one to be aware of. Even on my dicodes mods i routinely run similar builds at 230C which is around 450F.

 

[cigatron]

The relationship between the set temp and the actual temp varies all over the place depending on wire type and the mod (and probably a bunch of other things) I am running a perfectly good NiFe48 microcoil on the pico with the right TCR in and i have it at ~240C. It's not a problem but certainly one to be aware of. Even on my dicodes mods i routinely run similar builds at 230C which is around 460F.

True that, I had to run my Joyetech VT60 at 520°f to get sufficient warmth with Ti.

 

[TheotherSteveS]

True that, I had to run my Joyetech VT60 at 520°f to get sufficient warmth with Ti.

Absolutely. Currently have a Rose 3 with Nife48 on evic vtc mini at 420, same atty/build is 460 on Pico - both chips are Joyetech! I guess also mod internal resistance (and the atty for that matter) all contribute to errors. Amazing it works at all really haha!!!

 

[cigatron]

Absolutely. Currently have a Rose 3 with Nife48 on evic vtc mini at 420, same atty/build is 460 on Pico - both chips are Joyetech! I guess also mod internal resistance (and the atty for that matter) all contribute to errors. Amazing it works at all really haha!!!

Man, why can't Joyetech get it right? My Cuboid and your Evic VTC ran temps accurately, why can't they all?

 

[TheotherSteveS]

Man, why can't Joyetech get it right? My Cuboid and your Evic VTC ran temps accurately, why can't they all?

it really is a mystery. The UI is different but the core TC code must surely be the same so why are they so different?!?! Beats me. Unless the base resistances of the mods are different and not calibrated properly. That should give different deltas for different wires which is what we see I suppose...

 

[Giuseppe.bio]

Is that 26 or 28awg Ti you're using?

26awg Ti

 

[cigatron]

26awg Ti

Something is off. .A 47ohm, 26g Ti , 2.5mm coil should be 12 full wraps. Are you sure your cold res is .47? Seems like it should be closer to .39 ohms with 10 wraps.
Here is a helpful web page for coil building.

I loaded your coil info into this link for you
Coil wrapping

Below is the 7wrap 2.5mm 26g Ti coil I recommended earlier. Notice in the heat flux tab the power is set to 25w and the heat flux is at 247; a nice warmish vape. To set up tc for this coil I would set power to 25w if mouth-to-lung hitting and start with temp set to 380°f. Continue moving temp setting up until it gets warm enough for you. Don't worry about setting the power level higher than kanthal settings; the mod will turn the power down as needed based on juice flow and air flow.

Coil wrapping

Disclaimer: I'm guessing on the power level needed on your K5 because I'm not a tootle puffer. If your mod pulses up and down in temp while vaping in tc at 25w reduce the power a little at a time until it smooths out. If you reduce the power too far your set temp will no longer be reached.

 

[3alouka]

Well i'm a bit confused here when it comes to your recommended temps @cigatron i.e 385 - 450F. I setup a dual 26ga coils around a 3mm bit (~3.3mm given the wire is springy) in my 22mm Griffin, reading 0.19 ohm on my vaporshark DNA200. I first tried the preset for ti 1 in my materials list but it seems i need to go as high as 530 F. Next i went to steam engine calculator an put in my wire setup in a parallel wire to generate a csv file which i uploaded to my mod and used in my Griffin profile. I can feel a slight improvement, but i usually vape on a similar SS 316L setup at around 420 F satisfyingly. Any thoughts about what i might have done wrong here?

 

[cigatron]

Well i'm a bit confused here when it comes to your recommended temps @cigatron i.e 385 - 450F. I setup a dual 26ga coils around a 3mm bit (~3.3mm given the wire is springy) in my 22mm Griffin, reading 0.19 ohm on my vaporshark DNA200. I first tried the preset for ti 1 in my materials list but it seems i need to go as high as 530 F. Next i went to steam engine calculator an put in my wire setup in a parallel wire to generate a csv file which i uploaded to my mod and used in my Griffin profile. I can feel a slight improvement, but i usually vape on a similar SS 316L setup at around 420 F satisfyingly. Any thoughts about what i might have done wrong here?

Could be the wire: not all Ti is created equal eg Grade1 vs. Grade2, even Grade1 vs. Grade1. I'm really not sure what the difference is. I've bought GR1 Ti (china wire) from my local vape shop that I've had to run at 480°f for a warm vape and GR1 Ti from unkamen that runs at 420°f with the same mod, csv, build, wicking and atty.

Best thing to do if you want an accurate temp "display" with a particular atty and mod is the 420°f cotton browning test. In escribe start at .00366 tcr and then keep moving your tcr value up until the wick shows a faint brown color. Remember to turn off preheat for this test.
My latest Ti order from unkamen requires a tcr value of .00405 to faintly brown cotton at 420°f.

In addition higher VG juices have a higher boiling/vaporization point and may require higher temp setting to make the flavor pop eg 30-40°f higher for 80vg vs. 50vg.

Internal atty and mod static res (res not having a significant tcr value) can effect temp accuracy as well. Generally speaking attys with more parts connected together in the current path, whether they be in the pos or neg path, have higher static res. Same with those not having silver or gold plated contacts.
In escribe there is a tab to adjust for mod internal static res which should be set by the manufacturer of the mod. I have seen that setting range from .002-.007 ohms.
Read about static res and just about everything else concerning temp control here:
TC beyond Ni200: Nickel Purity, Dicodes; Ti, SS, Resistherm NiFe30; Coefficient of Resistance

 

[3alouka]

In escribe there is a tab to adjust for mod internal static res which should be set by the manufacturer of the mod. I have seen that setting range from .002-.007 ohms.
Read about static res and just about everything else concerning temp control here:
TC beyond Ni200: Nickel Purity, Dicodes; Ti, SS, Resistherm NiFe30; Coefficient of Resistance

I guess the Vaporshark DNA200 is one of the few, if not the only, mod that comes preset by the manufacturer. I've always used the Griffin 22 for temp control builds as this atty shows great reliability in this area, and of course for the spacious build deck area. I'm using UD TA1 wire, and i'm vaping my own 70vg DIY. It might be the wire, but i guess i'll just keep trying. Could it possibly be the fact that i'm using dual coils setup? The same happened to me with SS until i found the proper csv file made by DJaquith.

 

[cigatron]

Could it possibly be the fact that i'm using dual coils setup? The same happened to me with SS until i found the proper csv file made by DJaquith.

I don't think so. Almost all my tc builds are dual coil.

 

[Giuseppe.bio]

Something is off. .A 47ohm, 26g Ti , 2.5mm coil should be 12 full wraps. Are you sure your cold res is .47? Seems like it should be closer to .39 ohms with 10 wraps.
Here is a helpful web page for coil building.

I loaded your coil info into this link for you
Coil wrapping

Below is the ...

Thanks a lot for the link.
I made a 7 wrap coil with 26awg Ti grade1, 2,5 mm dia. and mod read 0.33 ohm, a little bit higher than calculator.
Base resistance was set & locked as indicated in mod's manual, at room temp.
Some times, resistance reading drifts about 0,01 ohm or 0,02, don't know why, because this mod does not display real time resist. value.
Just maybe the value is between 0,33 and 0,34...

Anyway, now 14.5 W and 235°C (445°F) (with 1 sec preheat @ 20w) makes a good puff . Let's see the wick in some days...

 

[rokyo87]

Ok, so I have a few questions.

I read it on reedit that TiO2 nano-particles are harmful to human but they can not be formed in our vaporizers. Why not?

Why do you think Titanium is the safest wire for vaping?

Is TiO2 formed just above particular temperature or it can be formed during normal vaping?

Even if we are inhaling some of TiO2, is this high enough concentration to cause a major harm?

Is TA1 from Youde (UD) good wire?

Thank you.

 

[cigatron]

I read it on reedit that TiO2 nano-particles are harmful to human but they can not be formed in our vaporizers. Why not?

TiO2 is formed on bare wire when heated to temps exceeding 1200°f. Even though the wire can be heated to temps that high when attempting to dryburn your coil you cannot vape it at temps that high. 600°f vapor would be screaming hot and not provide an enjoyable vape for anyone. Also, vaping with coil temps in excess of 460°f have been proven to release poisonous aldehydes.

Why do you think Titanium is the safest wire for vaping?

The purpose of this thread has never been to claim Ti as the "safest" wire to vape with, just to discuss the pros and possible cons with its use. I believe it can be safe to use if kept under 1150°f.

Is TiO2 formed just above particular temperature or it can be formed during normal vaping?

See comments above.

Even if we are inhaling some of TiO2, is this high enough concentration to cause a major harm?

I would not be comfortable recommending the inhalation of TiO2 in any quantity.

Is TA1 from Youde (UD) good wire?

Not sure about that wire, I get mine from Unkamensupplies.

Anyway, that's my take on Ti.