Titanium wire, vaping and safety

[showman]

I think I see what's going on now. Are you attempting to dry burn the Ti coil witout removing the ReadyXwick? I wouldn't attempt to do that as it requires the coil temp to be too high. Not safe imo.
Are you brushing your coils clean without removing the ReadyXwick. Wouldn't do that either as the SS bristles would break ceramic fibers off of the wick and those would be near impossible to remove completely.
I used ReadyXwick for a few months in my MiniProtanks a couple of years ago and found it to be lacking in juice holding capacity. Didn't meet my vaping style at all so I moved backed to cotton. vaping Cellucotton now and loving it.

Thanks! Yes, I tried dry-burning the first way, as you thought. I'll try it the way you suggest.

Removing the readyXwick is easy and it can be torched clean, so I'll try removing the wick, dry-burning, torching the wick, putting back.

Can you give some instructions on just how to dry-burn? I.e. What wattage/temp setting/length of pulse? Thanks.

 

[showman]

I think this is the one being used:
Stainless Steel Silver Cleaning Tool / Brush for RDA Coil
Not sure how it would reach under the coil, or inside.

Yes, this is the one I use, though I imagine it's a fairly generic item. It's advertised specifically for this purpose. They ship free above $15

 

[cigatron]

Thanks! Yes, I tried dry-burning the first way, as you thought. I'll try it the way you suggest.

Removing the readyXwick is easy and it can be torched clean, so I'll try removing the wick, dry-burning, torching the wick, putting back.

Can you give some instructions on just how to dry-burn? I.e. What wattage/temp setting/length of pulse? Thanks.

Dry burning Ti:
If you have a mod with adjustable tcr set the tcr to .00700. Set the temp to 600°f and fire it as long as you like to burn off the gunk. Don't forget to change your tcr back to .00366-.00410 when you're done dryburning though, otherwise you're in for a super hot burny vape!

If no adjustable tcr start by setting your wattage low in power mode, like 15w for dual coils and 7w for a single coil. As soon as ANY part of the coil shows red let off the fire button and blow on the coil(s). Blowing on the coil will help cool it very quickly but also will encourage smoldering of the gunk if any is present. Once no red can be seen fire again and repeat as necessary until the gunk has turned to ash. Scrub the coil(s) with a wet toothbrush and rinse thoroughly with water.

The MOST important thing is to not let the coil get entirely red. If the last wrap on each end of the coil begins to turn red you've over heated the Ti and it undoubtedly has created Ti02. I recommend replacing the coil (s) if that happens.

After some practice you can turn the wattage up a little to help get gunk smoldering faster but it becomes easier and easier the over heat the Ti.

I dry burn my 6wrap 24g duals at 22w in power mode or with a custom tcr profile on my DNA mods.

 

[Mactavish]

Dry burning Ti:
If you have a mod with adjustable tcr set the tcr to .00700. Set the temp to 600°f and fire it as long as you like to burn off the gunk.

If no adjustable tcr start by setting your wattage low like 15w for dual coils and 7w for a single coil. As soon as ANY part of the coil shows red let off the fire button and blow on the coil(s). Blowing on the coil will help cool it very quickly but also will encourage smoldering of the gunk if any is present. Once no red can be seen fire again and repeat as necessary until the gunk has turned to ash. Scrub the coil(s) with a wet toothbrush and rinse thoroughly with water.

The MOST important thing is to not let the coil get entirely red. If the last wrap on each end of the coil begins to turn red you've over heated the Ti and it undoubtedly has created Ti02. I recommend replacing the coil (s) if that happens.

After some practice you can turn the wattage up a little to help get gunk smoldering faster but it becomes easier and easier the over heat the Ti.

I dry burn my 6wrap 24g duals at 22w or with a custom tcr profile on my DNA mods.

Even a little white powder can be cleaned off if you dry burn too far. Not sure how true, but read somewhere it was used in the white powder on DONUTS. Regardless, your suggestion of using a toothbrush to clean the cools, is SMART. I wouldn't touch my coils with any kind of metal brush wires. If you think you coils are so foul, you need a BBQ brush, you are super lazy, build a new one!

 

[showman]

Even a little white powder can be cleaned off if you dry burn too far. Not sure how true, but read somewhere it was used in the white powder on DONUTS. Regardless, your suggestion of using a toothbrush to clean the cools, is SMART. I wouldn't touch my coils with any kind of metal brush wires. If you think you coils are so foul, you need a BBQ brush, you are super lazy, build a new one!

Dry burning Ti:
If you have a mod with adjustable tcr set the tcr to .00700. Set the temp to 600°f and fire it as long as you like to burn off the gunk. Don't forget to change your tcr back to .00366-.00410 when you're done dryburning though, otherwise you're in for a super hot burny vape!

If no adjustable tcr start by setting your wattage low in power mode, like 15w for dual coils and 7w for a single coil. As soon as ANY part of the coil shows red let off the fire button and blow on the coil(s). Blowing on the coil will help cool it very quickly but also will encourage smoldering of the gunk if any is present. Once no red can be seen fire again and repeat as necessary until the gunk has turned to ash. Scrub the coil(s) with a wet toothbrush and rinse thoroughly with water.

The MOST important thing is to not let the coil get entirely red. If the last wrap on each end of the coil begins to turn red you've over heated the Ti and it undoubtedly has created Ti02. I recommend replacing the coil (s) if that happens.

After some practice you can turn the wattage up a little to help get gunk smoldering faster but it becomes easier and easier the over heat the Ti.

I dry burn my 6wrap 24g duals at 22w in power mode or with a custom tcr profile on my DNA mods.

Great; thanks for these tips. I'll try this out once I have some dirty coils to play with.

I'm using a dicodes mod presently; it lists a Temp coefficient of Titanium as 350, and I can create a custom profile from 050 to 650. I'm guessing that 350 must approximately correspond to the figure you give of .00366-.00410, and so I'd want to set a 650 for the dry-burn (which I think is the max on my machine). I also have a DNA 75 around, but no copy of Windows to set up a profile.

A couple more quick queries, if no one minds...

Out of curiosity, what's the purpose of changing the TCR when dry-burning? Isn't this going to give us inaccurate readings, and potential TiO2 formation?

Also, just to have an idea of what to expect, wondering how long it usually takes to complete the dry-burn, roughly?

Am I right in thinking that it should be 1 second pulses? I feel like I remember reading that somewhere, but the memory is somewhat hazy on how long to pulse.

 

[showman]

One more question:

Should I be concerned if my atomizer states in the manual that "The atomiser can be damaged by usage without e-liquid" or should I just ignore this along with the 'DO NOT DRY BURN!' warning on my Titanium?

 

[cigatron]

One more question:

Should I be concerned if my atomizer states in the manual that "The atomiser can be damaged by usage without e-liquid" or should I just ignore this along with the 'DO NOT DRY BURN!' warning on my Titanium?

I regularly ignore those two warnings but ymmv (disclaimer).....lol

 

[cigatron]

Great; thanks for these tips. I'll try this out once I have some dirty coils to play with.

I'm using a dicodes mod presently; it lists a Temp coefficient of Titanium as 350, and I can create a custom profile from 050 to 650. I'm guessing that 350 must approximately correspond to the figure you give of .00366-.00410, and so I'd want to set a 650 for the dry-burn (which I think is the max on my machine). I also have a DNA 75 around, but no copy of Windows to set up a profile.

A couple more quick queries, if no one minds...

Out of curiosity, what's the purpose of changing the TCR when dry-burning? Isn't this going to give us inaccurate readings, and potential TiO2 formation?

Also, just to have an idea of what to expect, wondering how long it usually takes to complete the dry-burn, roughly?

Am I right in thinking that it should be 1 second pulses? I feel like I remember reading that somewhere, but the memory is somewhat hazy on how long to pulse.

Re dryburning with TC. Yes, changing your tcr to .0070 tricks your mod to fire the coil doubly hot. Around 1150-1200°f (actual temp) with your mod set to 600°f. Still not hot enough to form TiO2 but hot enough to burn gunk to ash.

Re dryburning time in power mode, re-read my previous post on dry burning. I didn't waste too many words.

 

[cigatron]

 

[3alouka]

Just a quick question before doing my first Ti build, and sorry if this has been asked too many times before, Contact or spaced?

 

[cigatron]

Just a quick question before doing my first Ti build, and sorry if this has been asked too many times before, Contact or spaced?

Spaced. Small spaces like the ones shown are far enough apart to keep from shorting but close enough to help with heating up quickly (shorter ramp time).

 

[3alouka]

Spaced. Small spaces like the ones shown are far enough apart to keep from shorting but close enough to help with heating up quickly (shorter ramp time).
View attachment 628509

Thanks a bunch @cigatron , now are there any adjustments i should make or just go ahead and use the Ti preset available in the material tab in escribe? I've already setup a dry burn profile with 0.007 tcr and 600° F. Can i use this profile to test if my coils are glowing evenly before i wick, or should i use the low wattage method in power mode?

 

[cigatron]

Thanks a bunch @cigatron , now are there any adjustments i should make or just go ahead and use the Ti preset available in the material tab in escribe? I've already setup a dry burn profile with 0.007 tcr and 600° F. Can i use this profile to test if my coils are glowing evenly before i wick, or should i use the low wattage method in power mode?

Yes, the Ti .csv file in the escribe materials list will work fine for most Ti variants. Steamengine.org also has .csv files for DNA devices. Of course you can always create your own .csv file in escribe too.

A comfortable temp setting should be somewhere between 385 and 450°f. A little higher or lower is fine too. I just go by how warm I like the vape.
The Ti dryburn profile you set up will probably not show reddening of the coils unless you're in the dark. That's ok, you don't have to see them glow red, you just want to burn off oils and impurities before wicking. If you want to see them glow red start with 7w for single coils or 14w for duals. Be in a dark place and increase power until you see them glow everywhere EXCEPT the last wrap on both ends of the coils. That'll reduce the chance of creating oxides.

Note: It's always a good idea to tooth brush and rinse the coils after any dry burning session just to ensure that there are no oxides present before wicking.

Good luck and happy Ti vaping.

 

[Giuseppe.bio]

Yes, the Ti .csv file in the escribe materials list will work fine for most Ti variants. Steamengine.org also has .csv files for DNA devices. Of course you can always create your own .csv file in escribe too.

A comfortable temp setting should be somewhere between 385 and 450°f. A little higher or lower is fine too. I just go by how warm I like the vape.
The Ti dryburn profile you set up will probably not show reddening of the coils unless you're in the dark. That's ok, you don't have to see them glow red, you just want to burn off oils and impurities before wicking. If you want to see them glow red start with 7w for single coils or 14w for duals. Be in a dark place and increase power until you see them glow everywhere EXCEPT the last wrap on both ends of the coils. That'll reduce the chance of creating oxides.

Note: It's always a good idea to tooth brush and rinse the coils after any dry burning session just to ensure that there are no oxides present before wicking.

Good luck and happy Ti vaping.

Hi cigatron,

Just to check my understanding, after reading pros&cons of Ti dry burning, and after reading studies where TiO2 is said to be harmful and/or carcinogen and even harmless (no consolidated conclussions, it seems).

What is the final purpose of a Ti dry burn (even in such cautious way you perfectly describe, thanks a lot)?
Is it just to clean it?
Is it worth doing it thus assuming the little?/big? risk of inhaling TiO2?
Wire can be cleaned with desionized water before winding it and even a first initial reverse puff would remove remaining dirt, if any left, before 1st puff you make.

And with a used coil, maybe is better to change it by a new one than cleaning it this way.

Maybe I should read thoroughly all the 187 pages of this post and others really interesting, to understand it better, but up to what I've read, I still question myself if dry burning Ti in the very cautius way you describe is safe or not. (Of course I do not consider the option of dry burning Ti as if it was Kanthal, obviously!)

I think you share extremely useful information, thans a lot.

In the 2 month we have been using Ti in an iSick Pico TC mode, we only clean, wind and mount the coil, wick, etc, without any further treatment, just as a feedback.

 

[cigatron]

Hi cigatron,

Just to check my understanding, after reading pros&cons of Ti dry burning, and after reading studies where TiO2 is said to be harmful and/or carcinogen and even harmless (no consolidated conclussions, it seems).

What is the final purpose of a Ti dry burn (even in such cautious way you perfectly describe, thanks a lot)?
Is it just to clean it?
Is it worth doing it thus assuming the little?/big? risk of inhaling TiO2?
Wire can be cleaned with desionized water before winding it and even a first initial reverse puff would remove remaining dirt, if any left, before 1st puff you make.

And with a used coil, maybe is better to change it by a new one than cleaning it this way.

Maybe I should read thoroughly all the 187 pages of this post and others really interesting, to understand it better, but up to what I've read, I still question myself if dry burning Ti in the very cautius way you describe is safe or not. (Of course I do not consider the option of dry burning Ti as if it was Kanthal, obviously!)

I think you share extremely useful information, thans a lot.

In the 2 month we have been using Ti in an iSick Pico TC mode, we only clean, wind and mount the coil, wick, etc, without any further treatment, just as a feedback.

Well, hmmmm, let me start by saying I'm not a metallurgist, scientist or a doctor. I can't and have never claimed that vaping with Ti is perfectly safe. I can't make that claim any more than claiming that the inhalation of vaporized PG, VG and food flavorings are harmless.
Bottom line is that after doing several hundred builds I'm just too lazy to rebuild every time I need to rewick. I dry burn Ti coils as safely as know how so that I minimize possible risks of inhaling Ti02.
Each of us has to decide for ourselves what level of risk is acceptable and there is no wrong choice whether we choose to dry burn, scrub and wash or we choose to rebuild. Once I dry burn at low power, scrub the coils with a toothbrush and thoroughly rinse the coils with water I can not detect any residual Ti02 on the coils under 20x magnification. That's good enough for me but others may disagree. That's ok too.
I say I'm too lazy to wrap new coils with every rewick but it's not so much laziness as it is frustration.My vision is not the best and my hands are a little shaky so I spend a lot of extra time ensuring that my builds are as symmetrical as possible.
Uniformity in the wraps is paramount for producing even heating across the length of the coils. If I leave a high wrap, opened end turn or any other irregularity in the coil I risk over temping the juice in that area. Even though that hotter spot may not produce a detectable change in flavor it can cause the juice to vaporize at temps higher than 470°f (even in TC mode) where aldehydes will be produced. Aldehydes are known carcinogens, so to reduce the chance of their formation while vaping once I have a super inform build I keep it.
In addition, under wicking can cause over temping of certain areas of the coil where symmetry is lacking, so I deliberately err on the side of over wicking vs. under wicking to ensure adequate long term wick-to-wire contact.

ETA: Whoops, almost forgot, Welcome to ECF and the Ti thread Giuseppe!

 

[Giuseppe.bio]

Hi Cigatron, thanks a lot for your thorough reply. Very interesting indeed.
I am also neither a doctor nor a metal specialist. In the end, it is a "not so easy" decission what materials and how to use them and everyone has to assume his/her own risks .

I didn't imagine that spaced coils not completely uniform could cause some kind of hot spots in the liquid that consequently, can produce bad things. Seems logical.
But then, this can happen with any setup, coil type and material used in e-cigars, isn't it?
I have to think about it a little more .

And thanks for your warm welcome
Cheers,
G.

 

[cigatron]

I didn't imagine that spaced coils not completely uniform could cause some kind of hot spots in the liquid that consequently, can produce bad things. Seems logical.
But then, this can happen with any setup, coil type and material used in e-cigars, isn't it?

Yep, you are correct. Over temping a portion of a coil is lessened as the spacing between the wraps is widened because the wicking can better conform the coil irregularities.
I use what I call "micro-spaced" or "slightly spaced" coils which have the benefit of extended wick life, better wick-to-wire contact and are short free but the wraps are close enough together to help with ramp time. See pic in my earlier post on this page.

 

[TheotherSteveS]

Yep, you are correct. Over temping a portion of a coil is lessened as the spacing between the wraps is widened because the wicking can better conform the coil irregularities.
I use what I call "micro-spaced" or "slightly spaced" coils which have the benefit of extended wick life, better wick-to-wire contact and are short free but the wraps are close enough together to help with ramp time. See pic in my earlier post on this page.

This is iteresting but i can't really agree?!?! The coil heats from the middle outwards, spaced or not. Slight differences in the spacing between wraps can only have a miniscule effect. There should really be no wrap-wrap heating effect. This is completely lost in a spaced coil due to evaporative cooling. The legs , and indeed the outermost wraps dont really contribute at all to vapour production in either a kanthal or a TC build..Irregularities in the diameter of wraps can have a big effect as they might not be in proper contact with the wick, they will effectively form a hot-spot (ie less cooling) and lunch any juice they do come in contact with. Aside from that i think you are over thinking this...sorry!

btw, not railing on you. Lot of respect as hopefully you know, just lets have a discussion as i might have misunderstood your point!!!

 

[cigatron]

This is iteresting but i can't really agree?!?! The coil heats from the middle outwards, spaced or not. Slight differences in the spacing between wraps can only have a miniscule effect. There should really be no wrap-wrap heating effect. This is completely lost in a spaced coil due to evaporative cooling. The legs , and indeed the outermost wraps dont really contribute at all to vapour production in either a kanthal or a TC build..Irregularities in the diameter of wraps can have a big effect as they might not be in proper contact with the wick, they will effectively form a hot-spot (ie less cooling) and lunch any juice they do come in contact with. Aside from that i think you are over thinking this...sorry!

btw, not railing on you. Lot of respect as hopefully you know, just lets have a discussion as i might have misunderstood your point!!!

Ok, something to consider is why would a coil heat from the center outward? This I believe is a misnomer.
The wire drops the same amount of voltage/mm along its entire length. It thereby creates the same amount of heat/mm along its entire length.
Although it's true that an unwicked coil appears to "heat" in the center first it actually doesn't; it just appears that way. An unwicked coil does however "get hot faster" in the middle because the heat produced nearer the ends of the coil is being sinked away by the deck posts. Add to that convected air passing by and entering the ends of coil (eddy effect) and you have a lot of heat being robbed from the ends of the coil but less from the center of the coil. The effects of convected air cooling can be proven by witnessing the difference between unwicked contact and spaced coils. Contact coils fire distinctly from the center out while spaced coils to a lesser degree; widely spaced coils to even a lesser degree. This is because spaced coils receive convected cooling between the spaces along their length. The wider the spaces the less distinction of center out firing.

So with a wicked coil you loose essentially all convected cooling within the coil, whether a spaced or contact. All that remains is external air cooling and evaporative cooling from vaporized juice. The deck posts still sink a great deal of heat from the end wraps and legs of the coils but the rest of the coil can be seen to boil juice fairly evenly, and more evenly as the spaces are widened.

Contact coils definitely fire faster than spaced coils and use less power to do so but not for the same reasons.
The total heat capacity of a contact coil is compressed into the smallest space possible whereas a spaced coil's total heat capacity is spread out over a larger wick area. It's not just the proximity of adjacent wraps that aid in heating up contact coils quickly, it's the heating of less wicking volume as well. In addition, once the tiny spaces between the wraps of a contact coils begin to gunk up you loose a lot of evaporative cooling between those wraps whereas with spaced coil this doesn't happen.

So in my experience as the proximity of adjacent wraps of a spaced coil narrows it does speed up ramp time but this may have more to do with the lessening of total wick volume within the coil than actual radiated heat from wrap to wrap (which I'm pretty certain I never said?).

Not trying to insult you're intelligence by spelling all this out Steve, you know a great deal and I respect your opinion . I write things like this to benefit/confuse inquiring minds too.

 

[cigatron]

@TheotherSteveS, it just occurred to me after rereading your post that you were referring to my comments about overtemping, not ramp time. I guess I typed a lot for nutt'n.

Yes, I agree with you. Small variations in wrap spacing would not cause over temping.