Titanium wire, vaping and safety

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tchavei

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I haven't thought through all the issues you guys have been addressing very well but I'm curious ...
Would doing the water test and adjusting the "purity setting" on the SKX to achieve 100C indicated temperature make any sense as a check on things? Probably not but I need edumacated!

Duane
Clever idea however, a few days ago, Holman was banging his head about that test on his sx mini (it was off) and later remated the atty to the sx and got a 0.01 difference which was enough to make the test work properly... All it took was 0.01 ohm to throw everything off.

Can we be absolutely sure when doing that purity adjustment that everything else is perfect?

Speaking of TC, I'm drooling over a evic VT right now. Unfortunately, the cheapest I've found was 79.99€ for the full kit here in Europe... But I don't want the full kit... What should I do? I really want / need a second TC mod so I can keep vaping if one bites the dust...

I already considered building another matchbox sized one but it would be the same as I already have and it would cost way more :/

Regards
Tony

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druckle

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Clever idea however, a few days ago, Holman was banging his head about that test on his sx mini (it was off) and later remated the atty to the sx and got a 0.01 difference which was enough to make the test work properly... All it took was 0.01 ohm to throw everything off.

Can we be absolutely sure when doing that purity adjustment that everything else is perfect?

Speaking of TC, I'm drooling over a evic VT right now. Unfortunately, the cheapest I've found was 79.99€ for the full kit here in Europe... But I don't want the full kit... What should I do? I really want / need a second TC mod so I can keep vaping if one bites the dust...

I already considered building another matchbox sized one but it would be the same as I already have and it would cost way more :/

Regards
Tony

Sent from my keyboard through my phone or something like that.

Tony:
hmmmmm evic VT....let me check and see how much they are here. If there's a significant saving I can pick one up and send it to you if there's a way to get through customs without getting "customized".

Wow...that's a really small ohm delta. I'm not sure that any of the devices we're using will consistently measure that well. I'll think on that and maybe give it a try later (once I'm in a better mood).



Duane
 

druckle

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Clever idea however, a few days ago, Holman was banging his head about that test on his sx mini (it was off) and later remated the atty to the sx and got a 0.01 difference which was enough to make the test work properly... All it took was 0.01 ohm to throw everything off.

Can we be absolutely sure when doing that purity adjustment that everything else is perfect?

Speaking of TC, I'm drooling over a evic VT right now. Unfortunately, the cheapest I've found was 79.99€ for the full kit here in Europe... But I don't want the full kit... What should I do? I really want / need a second TC mod so I can keep vaping if one bites the dust...

I already considered building another matchbox sized one but it would be the same as I already have and it would cost way more :/

Regards
Tony

Sent from my keyboard through my phone or something like that.


First place I checked was $58 for the tankless VT...I'll check some more and see what I can find. That might be a significant savings considering $ to Euros.

Duane
 

tchavei

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58 dollars are 51€

Yes, that would be a 30€ save.

Don't know about customs... Would probably need to be a hand written padded envelope or something so they wouldn't look at it twice but lately they send everything through the x ray so if they see something interesting it will be stopped anyway...

Probably not worth bothering you plus two postages. I'm sure I'll find a good deal here somewhere but I appreciate the intention nevertheless :)

Regards
Tony

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druckle

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58 dollars are 51€

Yes, that would be a 30€ save.

Don't know about customs... Would probably need to be a hand written padded envelope or something so they wouldn't look at it twice but lately they send everything through the x ray so if they see something interesting it will be stopped anyway...

Probably not worth bothering you plus two postages. I'm sure I'll find a good deal here somewhere but I appreciate the intention nevertheless :)

Regards
Tony

Sent from my keyboard through my phone or something like that.

Tony:
No bother here. I just don't know if your Customs Gestapo is better or worse than ours. If you decide it might be worth it let me know. Fastech gets stuff into the U.S. with no problem at all. It seems to take a 5 nanoseconds pass through customs and then it's off to us. Stuff from Europe is a lot slower and can be a downright pain in the ..... I had a watch come one time that cost me a lot of money. I guess there is some feeling that "good/expensive" stuff comes from Europe and they can make $$ on diligence.
Anyway if it's possible I like the idea of cheating "the man" out of what he thinks is his due.

Duane
 
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TheBloke

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I haven't thought through all the issues you guys have been addressing very well but I'm curious ...
Would doing the water test and adjusting the "purity setting" on the SKX to achieve 100C indicated temperature make any sense as a check on things? Probably not but I need edumacated!

Duane

Yes this is a very good idea. That or real temperature measuring - like pbusardo now does with a temperature probe.

Fortunately, I also now have a temperature probe device, that goes to 300°C and says it's accurate +/- 1°C. Unfortunately, it cost $5 from FastTech, so I am not sure quite how good it will actually be. I'm hoping maybe "better than nothing", and I plan trying wrapping a coil around it soon.

Clever idea however, a few days ago, Holman was banging his head about that test on his sx mini (it was off) and later remated the atty to the sx and got a 0.01 difference which was enough to make the test work properly... All it took was 0.01 ohm to throw everything off.

Can we be absolutely sure when doing that purity adjustment that everything else is perfect?

No, but that's the whole point - we adjust NP to counteract the known/expected imperfections.

All such imperfections fall under the category of Static Resistance. We know for certain that when we see an ohm reading of x.yzΩ, it is not the true reading of the wire. There has to be some Static Resistance: the mod 510, the atty 510, the connection between atty and coil and the atty itself all contribute resistance.

We hope that that static resistance (SR) is low, and we make our best attempts to minimise it - the easiest way being to ensure the build is tight, and with some high-SR RTAs (eg KF4, SR measured at 0.03Ω) tweaks have been found to reduce it. Even thoroughly cleaning the screws has been found to make a difference of 0.005Ω-0.01Ω.

In the Holman case he got a variable measurement of 0.01Ω just minutes apart - that I would suggest was either temperature fluctuations (atty/mod not at same temperature or cooling of ambient temperature) or a build adjustment or screwing down the atty better. Yes all such simple cases would need to be adjusted for when doing a real temp measurement - being sure of the resistance reading in a known-temperature environment, multiple measurements taken, etc. But that shouldn't be too taxing.

The beauty of NP, and also Dicodes' Coefficient Scale (CS), is that we can make calculations - we see what our real resistance is, then we estimate (or even measure - see below) the SR, and we calculate a revised NP/CS value that gives the correct target temperature for the estimated real resistance.

All of this is necessary because the base resistance is a multiplicative factor in the temperature calculation - if the base resistance is wrong, so are all temperature estimates. We fix that by changing another multiplicative factor - the TCR - because that's the factor we can change (at least on SXK and Dicodes mods.)

In a perfect/future world, TC mod makers would allow us to enter an offset - "This is what I read the resistance as, but you, oh vaping master, infinitely superior to me, a mere machine, know that that is wrong; please tell me how what to adjust this resistance to?" It might use slightly different language. Though on Evolv devices, this feature will not be added; instead Evolv have an alternative they are implementing after receiving suggestions from dr g, whereby if you think the temperature is wrong a small hammer flies out of the top of the mod and hits your head until you agree that it's Completely Accurate. I for one welcome our Evolv Overlords.

But in the absence of such resistance offset adjustment, we can use coefficient adjustments.

The whole SXK NP thing has been unfortunately clouded by the fact we're having to throw it into unexpected use to counteract SXK's chronic low resistance. But that is far from its only use. I will get my Dicodes 2380 tomorrow or the day after, which I paid All The Moneys for, intending it as my benchmark TC device; I will no longer have to adjust CS for poor resistance readings, rather I hope to use it to adjust for estimated/measured SR.

As for estimating/measuring SR:
  • Firstly, estimating - just knowing that a big-metal RTA will have more than an RDA, and complicated RTAs (KF4, Squape, etc) even more.
    • Eg 0.03Ω for a KF4 and similar atty is a good estimate - 0.02Ω at the least.
  • Secondly, indirect measurement - that's what I'd call the Water Test or any other kind of actual temperature test.
    • Do the temperature test, adjust NP/CS until the temperature configured is actually achieved, and your new NP is the right one for that target temp and build and wire
    • From that, work backwards to work out the SR of the atty/build (I can add this feature to my calculator spreadsheet.)
    • You might say, why work backwards when one already has a good NP?
    • Because the NP/CS value is specific to a target temp and wire type and starting resistance: the SR is not (or much less so)
    • Once the correct NP/CS value is known, the SR can be worked out from it, and then that SR can be plugged into future calculations of NP/CS values for other target temps and other wire types, without having to repeat the water/temp sensing test each time.
      • Also, shared with others to build up a knowledgebase of atty:SR pairings.
  • Third, direct measurement - shorting the atty and measuring the resistance
    • The most extreme, and requires accurate resistance measurement at least down to 0.01Ω
    • Short the posts of your atty with a tiny piece of low-resistance wire, then take a measurement
    • Ideally do this off a mod, on a separate resistance reader - but probably not a $10 ohms reader because they're not usually accurate that low.
    • If doing it on a mod, be sure not to press fire :) Or else be very confident your mod will say Low Res and not try to actually fire :) To be fair, all should, and some have been tested in this exact way.
    • This method was pioneered by @ndb70 and @funkyrudi has also been doing it - I have yet to try myself.
    • Once I get my Dicodes 2380 I plan to try it and then use the resulting measurements to adjust the CS for maximum accuracy.

Oh and to answer the question "what reads accurately to 0.001Ω" - the Dicodes claims to be accurate to mOhm resolution, 0.001Ω. But annoyingly, and baffingly, it only shows to 0.01Ω granularity, even on the dedicated Resistance Reading screen. So it will round the last digit.

The Yihi chips display three decimals (during Set Resistance) so we can hope they're reading it accurately, but they haven't stated an actual resistance accuracy. And the fact that they truncate the last digit, not round it, for the main display, is also baffling. But we can hope they at least use the last digit in their TC calcs - hope, but not assume I think.
 
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druckle

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Yes this is a very good idea. That or real temperature measuring - like pbusardo now does with a temperature probe.

Fortunately, I also now have a temperature probe device, that goes to 300°C and says it's accurate +/- 1°C. Unfortunately, it cost $5 from FastTech, so I am not sure quite how good it will actually be. I'm hoping maybe "better than nothing", and I plan trying wrapping a coil around it soon.



No, but that's the whole point - we adjust NP to counteract the known/expected imperfections.

The best example is Static Resistance. We know for certain that when we see an ohm reading of x.yzΩ, it is not the true reading of the wire. There has to be some Static Resistance: the mod 510, the atty 510, the connection between atty and coil and the atty itself all contribute resistance.

We hope that that static resistance (SR) is low, and we make our best attempts to minimise it - the easiest way being to ensure the build is tight, and with some high-SR RTAs (eg KF4, SR measured at 0.03Ω) tweaks have been found to reduce it. Even thoroughly cleaning the screws has been found to make a difference of 0.005Ω-0.01Ω.

The beauty of NP, and also Dicodes' Coefficient Scale (CS), is that we can make calculations - we see what our real resistance is, then we estimate (or even measure - see below) the SR, and we calculate a revised NP/CS value that takes into account the estimated real resistance.

In a perfect/future world, TC mod makers would allow us to enter an offset - "This is what I read the resistance as, but you, oh vaping master, infinitely superior to me, a mere machine, know that that is wrong - please tell me how much to adjust this by?" It might use slightly different language. Though on Evolv devices, this feature will not be added; instead Evolv have an alternative they are implementing after receiving suggestions from dr g, whereby if you think the temperature is wrong a small hammer flies out of the top of the mod and hits your head until you agree that it's Completely Accurate. I for one welcome our Evolv Overlords.

But in the absence of such resistance offset adjustment, we can use coefficient adjustments.

The whole SXK NP thing has been unfortunately clouded by the fact we're having to throw it into unexpected use to counteract SXK's chronic low resistance. But that is far from its only use. I will get my Dicodes 2380 tomorrow or the day after, which I paid All The Moneys for, intending it as my benchmark TC device; I will no longer have to adjust CS for poor resistance readings, rather I hope to use it to adjust for estimated/measured SR.

As for estimating/measuring SR:
  • Firstly, estimating - just knowing that a big-metal RTA will have more than an RDA, and complicated RTAs (KF4, Squape, etc) even more.
    • Eg 0.03Ω for a KF4 and similar atty is a good estimate - 0.02Ω at the least.
  • Secondly, indirect measurement - that's what I'd call the Water Test or any other kind of actual temperature test.
    • Do the temperature test, adjust NP/CS until the temperature configured is actually achieved, and your new NP is the right one for that target temp and build and wire
    • From that, work backwards to work out the SR of the atty/build (I can add this feature to my calculator spreadsheet.)
    • You might say, why work backwards when one already has a good NP?
    • Because the NP/CS value is specific to a target temp and wire type and starting resistance: the SR is not (or much less so)
    • Once the correct NP/CS value is known, the SR can be worked out from it, and then that SR can be plugged into future calculations of NP/CS values for other target temps and other wire types, without having to repeat the water/temp sensing test each time.
      • Also, shared with others to build up a knowledgebase of atty:SR pairings.
  • Third, direct measurement - shorting the atty and measuring the resistance
    • The most extreme, and requires accurate resistance measurement right at least down to 0.01Ω
    • Short the posts of your atty with a tiny piece of low-resistance wire, then take a measurement
    • Ideally do this off a mod, on a separate resistance reader - but probably not a $10 ohms reader because they're not usually accurate that low.
    • If doing it on a mod, be sure not to press fire :) Or else be very confident your mod will say Low Res and not try to actually fire :) To be fair, all should, and some have been tested in this exact way.
    • This method was pioneered by @ndb70 and @funkyrudi has also been doing it - I have yet to try myself.
    • Once I get my Dicodes 2380 I plan to try it and then use the resulting measurements to adjust the CS for maximum accuracy.

Oh and to answer the question "what reads accurately to 0.001Ω" - the Dicodes claims to be accurate to mOhm resolution, 0.001Ω. But annoyingly, and baffingly, it only shows to 0.01Ω granularity, even on the dedicated Resistance Reading screen. So it will round the last digit.

The Yihi chips display three decimals (during Set Resistance) so we can hope they're reading it accurately, but they haven't stated an actual resistance accuracy. And the fact that they truncate the last digit, not round it, for the main display, is also baffling. But we can hope they at least use the last digit in their TC calcs - hope, but not assume I think.
Tom:

I have a decent lab thermocouple device for platinum tc's but the wire I have is pretty thick and I don't think the response rate would be very good. I'm interested in seeing how your precision Fastech device does. Maybe we can both try the water test and see what that gives. I'm a little confused by the DNA too high SXM too low stuff still so I don't know what to expect with SKX at water temperature.


At least we would know that the temperature was accurate albeit at temps too low to be valid vape wise. I'll try to run that test with the SKX tomorrow and see what "purity" adjustment seems to work.

Just a thought...but if you make a fairly long contact coil and place the temp probe tip in the center I would think you could get something fairly close to black body conditions so if the device is good then your coil measurements should be good. I don't know if you can keep the tip from touching the coil though. That might foul things up. Maybe a long fat coil? :)

Duane
 
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TheBloke

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Yeah probe in the centre was what I was thinking - though I thought less spaced more contact would be better, more of a concentration of heat? But I don't know if it's better to spread the heat out over a wider area of probe or not. I will experiment.

I have an IR gun as well (not lab by any means - £10) which I already tried but the readings were always way low, like 300°F on a setting of 420. It's also hard to keep steady because it's a big gun-grip style and I don't have anything to really hold it still. I might be able to improve that, perhaps with a cable tie around the grip and then holding that in my Helping Hands - it's not heavy. I will try that as well. That goes higher, up to 500°C, at which point it's +/- 1.5°C I believe.
 

druckle

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Yeah probe in the centre was what I was thinking - though I thought less spaced more contact would be better, more of a concentration of heat? But I don't know if it's better to spread the heat out over a wider area of probe or not. I will experiment.

I have an IR gun as well (not lab by any means - £10) which I already tried but the readings were always way low, like 300°F on a setting of 420. It's also hard to keep steady because it's a big gun-grip style and I don't have anything to really hold it still. I might be able to improve that, perhaps with a cable tie around the grip and then holding that in my Helping Hands - it's not heavy. I will try that as well. That goes higher, up to 500°C, at which point it's +/- 1.5°C I believe.

Tom
OH...I think a contact coil would definitely be best but you'll find out. I wish I had some fine wire and some of those ceramic TC tubes with the 2 holes down the length. That would be perfect to measure the temp and keep the TC tip off the coil surface/away from shorts chances.

Duane
 

druckle

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Tom:

Just FYI the 60 watt SKX I got reads my "test" coil/atty at 0.280 ohms. On my so called good ohm meter the same combo measures 0.386 ohms and one SXM reads it at 0.326.

This SKX asks for upsan down button presses so it definitely is reading lower than the other two devices. If we are to be plagued by resistance readings that are all over the place then I hope some real temp calibration procedure works because I'm feeling we'll be on soupy sand for real coil temps. Maybe we're just asking too much of the technology as it stands and we should just adjust to taste/no burn.

Duane
 

TheBloke

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Resistance readings in all (or at least, nearly all) mods are currently somewhat suspect and variable - evidenced by how a single build can sometimes read three different things on three different 'good' mods.

The only vendor, to my knowledge, to thus far state the accuracy of their device is Dicodes, claiming 0.001Ω accuracy. In general Dicodes have taken things further in analysing and explaining TC, for example publishing a list of interesting information and guidelines in their Application Note For Temperature Controlled Vaping.

One of their more interesting findings/guidelines is that a spring is important in the connection between mod and atty, and that if you can't have a spring you should have a large gap to minimise temperature fluctuations in resistance. Which explains why their Dani Extreme v2 mod, which has fixed 510 pin, doesn't allow any atty to sit flush; but doesn't explain why they didn't put a spring in it when it costs £150! Maybe they have very special springs that they absolutely cannot include for less than £225 ;)

Anyway, normal resistance variations and doubt aside, SXK is a special, very bad case. It always reads lower than anything else, including professional benchmark equipment, and the amount by which it reads low increases the higher the base resistance of the coil. And this is consistent across all the new SXK mods. It's a major defect in the chip.

I emailed them to tell them and they thanked me and said they would "let their engineers know."

As a reminder, here are @balazsk 's reading on a Batch 1 chip (no New Atomizer Up/Down question) against a high quality micro-ohm reader. Others have found variations, sometimes seemingly not quite as bad, but they were never against benchmark equipment and usually show inconsistencies so I think we can assume balazsk's readings remain valid for all SXK devices.

Real Ω | SXK RΩ | Differ | Diff %
1.78 Ω | 1.53 Ω | 0.25 Ω | 13.8%
1.27 Ω | 1.07 Ω | 0.20 Ω | 15.7%
1.08 Ω | 0.92 Ω | 0.16 Ω | 14.8%
0.90 Ω | 0.75 Ω | 0.15 Ω | 16.7%
0.60 Ω | 0.50 Ω | 0.10 Ω | 16.7%
0.42 Ω | 0.35 Ω | 0.07 Ω | 16.7%
0.30 Ω | 0.24 Ω | 0.06 Ω | 20.5%
0.20 Ω | 0.14 Ω | 0.06 Ω | 28.6%
0.16 Ω | 0.12 Ω | 0.04 Ω | 25.9%
0.10 Ω | 0.06 Ω | 0.04 Ω | 40.0%


The %s are why I recommend building coils with a real resistance of 0.40Ω - 0.90Ω, as the difference is lowest, in % terms, in that range.
 

tchavei

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Tony:
No bother here. I just don't know if your Customs Gestapo is better or worse than ours. If you decide it might be worth it let me know. Fastech gets stuff into the U.S. with no problem at all. It seems to take a 5 nanoseconds pass through customs and then it's off to us. Stuff from Europe is a lot slower and can be a downright pain in the ..... I had a watch come one time that cost me a lot of money. I guess there is some feeling that "good/expensive" stuff comes from Europe and they can make $$ on diligence.
Anyway if it's possible I like the idea of cheating "the man" out of what he thinks is his due.

Duane

Just found a BM 15 miles from my home that will receive the VT today (at 79.99€) only catch... they pre-sold all colors except white... do I want that mod so badly I'm willing to take the white? :S

Tony
 
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TheBloke

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It is made of Titanium, aluminium, nickel, chrome, iron. I think the point is to avoid using anything but Titanium.

What is it, what's the name?

And is that the point? I though the point was to get the best possible wire? :) Is there a reason why those components would be bad?

Kanthal is Iron, Chrome, Aluminium; Ni200 is Nickel; Resistherm is Nickel and Iron; NiChrome 80 is Nickel and Chrome; Titanium Gr1 is Titanium.

So all those elements we vape in other wires, alone or together in different combinations; is there a reason they would be bad in this combination?
 

TheBloke

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Just found a BM 15 miles from my home that will receive the VT today (at 79.99€) only catch... they pre-sold all colors except white... do I want that mod so badly I'm willing to take the white? :S

Tony

It's not white white



That's not too bad in my view - a sort of creamy colour, and blue. Wait.. BLUE! BLUE STRIPE! FOR TITANIUM! Obviously you have to get it, duh :)

(PS. My advice is entirely unbiased and not in any way related to the fact I want an expert to test it with Titanium so I know if it's worth spending $56 from China for the black+red ;) )
 

Quantum Mech

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Yeah probe in the centre was what I was thinking - though I thought less spaced more contact would be better, more of a concentration of heat? But I don't know if it's better to spread the heat out over a wider area of probe or not. I will experiment.

I have an IR gun as well (not lab by any means - £10) which I already tried but the readings were always way low, like 300°F on a setting of 420. It's also hard to keep steady because it's a big gun-grip style and I don't have anything to really hold it still. I might be able to improve that, perhaps with a cable tie around the grip and then holding that in my Helping Hands - it's not heavy. I will try that as well. That goes higher, up to 500°C, at which point it's +/- 1.5°C I believe.

I have K-Type insertion probes {not the rear end type but sure that would work too}

Will see how they read in a coil on my next build

As Duane mentioned, response time is slow but with continued firing they would read max temp ok
 
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druckle

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It's not white white



That's not too bad in my view - a sort of creamy colour, and blue. Wait.. BLUE! BLUE STRIPE! FOR TITANIUM! Obviously you have to get it, duh :)

(PS. My advice is entirely unbiased and not in any way related to the fact I want an expert to test it with Titanium so I know if it's worth spending $56 from China for the black+red ;) )
Tony
Want much? :)

Duane
 
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