Titanium wire, vaping and safety

[awsum140]

What I am saying is that the curves originally used were based on results obtained in a lab with very pure titanium and under carefully controlled conditions. Now we're using them in commercially produced electronic devices, of various levels of accuracy and tolerance, in a "real world" environment and with Grade 1 titanium that has probably come from the least expensive source. Add in the variability introduced by each user and their own preferences, and the whole thing is just not "cast in stone". At best it is a close approximation, at worst it's off even a lot more.

 

[tchavei]

What I am saying is that the curves originally used were based on results obtained in a lab with very pure titanium and under carefully controlled conditions. Now we're using them in commercially produced electronic devices, of various levels of accuracy and tolerance, in a "real world" environment and with Grade 1 titanium that has probably come from the least expensive source. Add in the variability introduced by each user and their own preferences, and the whole thing is just not "cast in stone". At best it is a close approximation, at worst it's off even a lot more.

The samples used in studies in the 60's were less pure (thus TCR 0.0038) than nowadays titanium grade 1 (TCR around 0.0035)

In the end, we're discussing peanuts. I'm pretty sure that if you sneeze on your build, your TCR will be more affected than titanium grade 1 purity.

Now that there are vendors out there getting sub par titanium for our use (grade 2 or higher) and market it as the vaping nirvana, I have no doubts at all.

Regards
Tony

Sent from my keyboard through my phone or something like that.

 

[druckle]

The samples used in studies in the 60's were less pure (thus TCR 0.0038) than nowadays titanium grade 1 (TCR around 0.0035)

In the end, we're discussing peanuts. I'm pretty sure that if you sneeze on your build, your TCR will be more affected than titanium grade 1 purity.

Now that there are vendors out there getting sub par titanium for our use (grade 2 or higher) and market it as the vaping nirvana, I have no doubts at all.

Regards
Tony

Sent from my keyboard through my phone or something like that.

Tony

The only absolutely pure sample of any material we can be absolutely sure of is for a sample size of 1 atom. You are absolutely right. Considering variation of TCR for any Grade 1 titanium within the specification is essentially obfuscating the facts for vaping applications.

Duane

 

[soulseek]

If you look carefully, the curve is not truly linear. It is close, but not exact. And remember that curve is for pure titanium, not the alloys we use, Grade 1 is not pure.

I don't know how else I should express this so you can understand it, maybe English is not your native language. Yes, the Ti characteristics aren't linear if you look close enough but for Ni200 you don't need to look close enough, its temperature dependence wrt to resistance is far more parabolic, hence more likely to be inaccurate if you're using a singular value for the TCR. And of course, the Ti dependence isn't going to be truly linear, almost nothing is truly linear if you look close enough; you think the floor you're standing on is linear?

 

[awsum140]

You can't seem to get past the fact that TC is not the Holy Grail nor is titanium or nickel wire. We are talking about differences of a few percent, granted, but at the levels of resistance and accuracy, and lack thereof, inherent in the devices it can, and does, make a difference. Again, you are in a world of lab standards and applying it to real world electronics made in China by the cheapest possible methods. I'm sure we've all seen differences between what an ohm meter reads versus what our mod reads on the same coil, and that is more than a small percentage of difference. Any difference between true resistance and what the device can resolve, no matter where that difference comes from, resistance curve, device accuracy, quality of wire, quality of connection or which way the wind is blowing and is it an even or odd number day, is going to change the operating temperature.

All that said, the TC curve is not linear for anything. The curve does vary. Dancing on a pin, maybe, but a two or five percent variation at these levels can make a significant difference in temperature and performance.

If you want to believe that your device is reading the temperature of Ti or Ni accurately, that is your choice. At best, given the technology as it exists right now, it is an approximation. Accept that as fact, not fiction, and in plain English.

 

[druckle]

You can't seem to get past the fact that TC is not the Holy Grail nor is titanium or nickel wire. We are talking about differences of a few percent, granted, but at the levels of resistance and accuracy, and lack thereof, inherent in the devices it can, and does, make a difference. Again, you are in a world of lab standards and applying it to real world electronics made in China by the cheapest possible methods. I'm sure we've all seen differences between what an ohm meter reads versus what our mod reads on the same coil, and that is more than a small percentage of difference. Any difference between true resistance and what the device can resolve, no matter where that difference comes from, resistance curve, device accuracy, quality of wire, quality of connection or which way the wind is blowing and is it an even or odd number day, is going to change the operating temperature.

All that said, the TC curve is not linear for anything. The curve does vary. Dancing on a pin, maybe, but a two or five percent variation at these levels can make a significant difference in temperature and performance.

If you want to believe that your device is reading the temperature of Ti or Ni accurately, that is your choice. At best, given the technology as it exists right now, it is an approximation. Accept that as fact, not fiction, and in plain English.

I guess I don't understand your point. Are you saying that the current method of temperature control isn't perfect? If so...I agree.

Are you saying that the current method of temperature control is useless and we shouldn't be using it? If so I disagree.

Duane

 

[soulseek]

You can't seem to get past the fact that TC is not the Holy Grail nor is titanium or nickel wire. We are talking about differences of a few percent, granted, but at the levels of resistance and accuracy, and lack thereof, inherent in the devices it can, and does, make a difference. Again, you are in a world of lab standards and applying it to real world electronics made in China by the cheapest possible methods. I'm sure we've all seen differences between what an ohm meter reads versus what our mod reads on the same coil, and that is more than a small percentage of difference. Any difference between true resistance and what the device can resolve, no matter where that difference comes from, resistance curve, device accuracy, quality of wire, quality of connection or which way the wind is blowing and is it an even or odd number day, is going to change the operating temperature.

All that said, the TC curve is not linear for anything. The curve does vary. Dancing on a pin, maybe, but a two or five percent variation at these levels can make a significant difference in temperature and performance.

If you want to believe that your device is reading the temperature of Ti or Ni accurately, that is your choice. At best, given the technology as it exists right now, it is an approximation. Accept that as fact, not fiction, and in plain English.

I don't know what you're smoking and why you're going on about lab standards. You must have trouble understanding what you're reading if your conclusion from my posts is that the TC characteristics of Ti is strictly linear.
This whole discussion started from your comment: "Another thought is that the temperature curves being used for Ti don't seem to be always accurate. That could also result in different "singeing" temperatures between Ni and Ti".
This is wrong on two fronts, noone uses the TCR curves for their mods besides the DNA200 (which is done by the user), otherwise it wouldn't be inaccurate. What they use is a single number for the TCR. Secondly, Ti in vaping ranges is approximately linear where as Ni200 is almost parabolic. Therefore, if something is going to be noticeably inaccurate to the user when vaping, it will be the atomiser using Nickel.

Finally, I don't know if you're vaping on a cheap Chinese mod but what I'm using is a decent German device, so don't put everyone of us in the same user case scenario. Also, others have mentioned this but you have trouble grasping it. Titanium grades are standardised meaning there's no "quality of wire" between what we use in our atomisers; a wire is either Grade 1 or it isn't!!!

 

[soulseek]

I guess I don't understand your point. Are you saying that the current method of temperature control isn't perfect? If so...I agree.

Are you saying that the current method of temperature control is useless and we shouldn't be using it? If so I disagree.

Duane

Well I don't think that we expect it to ever be perfect, right? We're estimating the temperature of the coil which certainly isn't equal to the temperature of evaporation of the liquid, which is what we care about. Numerous factors will affect the temperature of evaporation of the liquid, depending on the atomiser, the coil build, the wick countless other factors.
However, I'm quite happy with my setup so far as I can calibrate my vapour to a certain desirable range and protection against dry wicks. However, there's lots of different chipsets there, which provide varying results and I think this is what is unsatisfactory right now.

 

[awsum140]

There are several mods out there that advertise and have Ti curves or coefficents of resistance that seem to be inaccurate is all that I am pointing out. Again, TC, Ti, Ni are not the Holy Grail, but as it stands at the moment are the best thing available. It does regulate temperature fairly well I just don't think it is anywhere nearly as accurate as people, generally, seem to make it out to be or think it is, German, Chinese or American mod. Nit picking the curves and devices is a pointless exercise and from my viewpoint this whole discussion has ended.

 

[tchavei]

I don't think the discussion should end. You raise an interesting question.

Since the Ti curve is almost linear, it should be simple math to make a mod reflect somewhat accurately the vaping temperature in Ti mode.

So why in earth do I feel the dna 200 (with a linear 0.0035 Ti TCR) and a dna 40 (adjusted ni curve to 185C) being absolutely repeatable and consistent and my evic VT wondering off by like 60C without changing base resistance?

How come the sx mini appears to work better with Ti in Ni mode (discounting the offset) than in native Ti mode? It's freaking linear! It should easier to implement than ni? What's the problem?


Regards
Tony

Sent from my keyboard through my phone or something like that.

 

[druckle]

I don't think the discussion should end. You raise an interesting question.

Since the Ti curve is almost linear, it should be simple math to make a mod reflect somewhat accurately the vaping temperature in Ti mode.

So why in earth do I feel the dna 200 (with a linear 0.0035 Ti TCR) and a dna 40 (adjusted ni curve to 185C) being absolutely repeatable and consistent and my evic VT wondering off by like 60C without changing base resistance?

How come the sx mini appears to work better with Ti in Ni mode (discounting the offset) than in native Ti mode? It's freaking linear! It should easier to implement than ni? What's the problem?


Regards
Tony

Sent from my keyboard through my phone or something like that.

Tony
Damned good questions all. I have no problem with the SX M and Ti as long as I use the Ni setting and adjust temp. Not so good with native Ti settings on the SX M.

The fact that it works well with the temp offset Ni setting and not with the Ti setting doesn't make sense to me but the fact that it can work well with one setting makes happy.

The DNA 200 is super nice in letting me tailor preheat etc. and I prefer it over everything else but I don' t think that has anything to do with my Ti coil or the TCR. It just works.

Maybe simple math isn't so simple sometimes for some people? Or maybe all 510 connectors aren't equal and are one of the weakest points in a TC mod design?

Duane

 

[vapealone]

I don't think the discussion should end. You raise an interesting question.

Since the Ti curve is almost linear, it should be simple math to make a mod reflect somewhat accurately the vaping temperature in Ti mode.

So why in earth do I feel the dna 200 (with a linear 0.0035 Ti TCR) and a dna 40 (adjusted ni curve to 185C) being absolutely repeatable and consistent and my evic VT wondering off by like 60C without changing base resistance?

How come the sx mini appears to work better with Ti in Ni mode (discounting the offset) than in native Ti mode? It's freaking linear! It should easier to implement than ni? What's the problem?


Regards
Tony

Sent from my keyboard through my phone or something like that.

These are good questions and bug me too. Unfortunately, dont know the answer.
I just suspect that it is not about any curve* but algorithm which is trying to be proactive and predicting changes instead of being reactive and following actual changes.

*For the record: Evolv uses 6 linear segments as a Ni curve, probably 3 of those are covering our vaping range. Not too sophisticated, neither overly curved, and still does the job.

 

[vapealone]

And let me add a few thoughts to the Ti debate as well

TiGr1 has the highest purity among the commercial grades.
There are Tis with higher purity above that but not for commercial purpose.
The standards in general define the lowest acceptable/suitable key requrements for a certain application.
I.e. in our case the inpurity.
As long as it is equal or below the Gr1 requirement it can be sold and used as GR1
But this is basically a range and tons of slightly different materials with slightly different properties within it.

 

[awsum140]

That range is specifically what I was talking about, VA. The variations from manufacturer to manufacturer and, even, run to run, can present significant differences at the low levels of resistance inherently necessary to use TC.

The variations, from device to device, besides just being affected by tolerances and overall quality will also come from exactly how the algorithm is implemented or if it's actually implemented at all. Add in the "oops" factor in writing the code and things can go awry, or even scotch, fairly easily.

 

[tchavei]

Well why don't we put things in perspective?

Minimum purity for grade 1 is 99.45% or it isn't grade 1. Period.

Stealthvape is selling grade 1 Ti with a purity of 99.8947% (check published analysis sheet)

The difference between the minimum and best quality grade 1 Ti I was able to find is mere 0.4447%

What TCR effect will have that small difference have in real life usage? I have no idea but I doubt it's very high... Yet the stealthvape Ti already costs twice as much.

Can you imagine the cost of 99.95% pure titanium? No vendor is going to offer that. It's too cost prohibitive.

So basically, among grade 1 wires, you won't find a bigger difference in purity than 0.4447 unless someone is cheating with grade 2... Does this affect vaping performance?

Regards
Tony

Sent from my keyboard through my phone or something like that.

 

[druckle]

Well why don't we put things in perspective?

Minimum purity for grade 1 is 99.45% or it isn't grade 1. Period.

Stealthvape is selling grade 1 Ti with a purity of 99.8947% (check published analysis sheet)

The difference between the minimum and best quality grade 1 Ti I was able to find is mere 0.4447%

What TCR effect will have that small difference have in real life usage? I have no idea but I doubt it's very high... Yet the stealthvape Ti already costs twice as much.

Can you imagine the cost of 99.95% pure titanium? No vendor is going to offer that. It's too cost prohibitive.

So basically, among grade 1 wires, you won't find a bigger difference in purity than 0.4447 unless someone is cheating with grade 2... Does this affect vaping performance?

Regards
Tony

Sent from my keyboard through my phone or something like that.

Consider also that Nickel is one of only four elements that exhibits a Curie Temperature and that property controls a range of other physical properties such as thermal expansion coefficient AND temperature coefficient of resistance in a profound way. Curie temperature is widely known to be extremely sensitive to chemical composition in Nickel alloys. All this means that Nickel is much more sensitive to purity than titanium which does not exhibit a Curie Temperature.

The effect of compositon of titanium wire on TCR is being discussed when it would be much more justified to discuss the effect of composition of nickel wire on TCR. More importantly there are other factors beyond wire composition which are critical to successful temperature control in vaping.

I personally believe that the ability to measure very small changes in resistance in a timely way and process the data correctly are much more appropriate if we want to understand the variability in temperature controlled vaping.

Duane

 

[druckle]

BTW a really good micro ohm meter costs several thousand dollars. Does that make anyone wonder why our temperature controlled mods might not be perfectly accurate?

 

[soulseek]

I don't think the discussion should end. You raise an interesting question.

Since the Ti curve is almost linear, it should be simple math to make a mod reflect somewhat accurately the vaping temperature in Ti mode.

So why in earth do I feel the dna 200 (with a linear 0.0035 Ti TCR) and a dna 40 (adjusted ni curve to 185C) being absolutely repeatable and consistent and my evic VT wondering off by like 60C without changing base resistance?

How come the sx mini appears to work better with Ti in Ni mode (discounting the offset) than in native Ti mode? It's freaking linear! It should easier to implement than ni? What's the problem?


Regards
Tony

Sent from my keyboard through my phone or something like that.

Very interesting post but there isn't a clear answer. Have you experienced everyone of these differences yourself? Vape quality and temperature is very subjective. These questions are much harder to answer as a slightly different build, let alone atomiser, can have a significant difference.
One thing I'm fairly certain is that lots of people reporting a better vape for Ti in nickel mode is because it is giving them a warmer vape. This results in more vapour production and this is being coupled with a more satisfying vape, even though it might me inaccurate.

 

[druckle]

Very interesting post but there isn't a clear answer. Have you experienced everyone of these differences yourself? Vape quality and temperature is very subjective. These questions are much harder to answer as a slightly different build, let alone atomiser, can have a significant difference.
One thing I'm fairly certain is that lots of people reporting a better vape for Ti in nickel mode is because it is giving them a warmer vape. This results in more vapour production and this is being coupled with a more satisfying vape, even though it might me inaccurate.

Accuracy could indeed be overrated in vaping. Repeatability is probably more important

Duane

 

[tchavei]

Very interesting post but there isn't a clear answer. Have you experienced everyone of these differences yourself? Vape quality and temperature is very subjective. These questions are much harder to answer as a slightly different build, let alone atomiser, can have a significant difference.
One thing I'm fairly certain is that lots of people reporting a better vape for Ti in nickel mode is because it is giving them a warmer vape. This results in more vapour production and this is being coupled with a more satisfying vape, even though it might me inaccurate.

Yes I have. I have all devices except the sx mini and my dna 40 experience was corroborated by TheBloke who measured my temp setting in ni mode (185C) to actual coil temperature and it was 240C. When I set my dna 200 with a linear 0.0035 TCR curve and define temperature at 240C, I can swap devices with my eyes closed and not notice a difference.

Take the evic VT and I have to go over 275C and it still doesn't produce the same vapor.

Regards
Tony

Sent from my keyboard through my phone or something like that.