Titanium wire, vaping and safety

[Mad Scientist]

Hi everybody. Is it possible to dry burn titanium coils? Well, actually, I understand that everything is possible)) What is negative about titanium dry burning?

A powdery layer of white TiO2 will form on the wire. Some people are afraid of inhaling that. I think occupational levels of chronic exposure to TiO2 dust have been shown to be not good. You might as well avoid forming that layer if you can.

 

[Fsx]

A powdery layer of white TiO2 will form on the wire. Some people are afraid of inhaling that. I think occupational levels of chronic exposure to TiO2 dust have been shown to be not good. You might as well avoid forming that layer if you can.

Thanks 4 ur reply. Is this "powdery layer" visible?

 

[awsum140]

Hi everybody. Is it possible to dry burn titanium coils? Well, actually, I understand that everything is possible)) What is negative about titanium dry burning?

Well, you don't ever want to heat Ti to that nice red glow like you'd use for Kanthal or nichrome. To do so insures the creation of a thick layer of titanium oxide, not something you really want to inhale. Look two posts above yours for the temperatures thing happen at with Ti and proceed accordingly, with caution.

This thread seems a little long, but dry burning has been discussed, in depth, by real, bonafide, experts in titanium alloys. Read back about twenty pages or so and see what the real "skinny" is so you can act with knowledge rather than guess.

 

[Mad Scientist]

Thanks 4 ur reply. Is this "powdery layer" visible?

Yes. If you increase the wire temp slowly in free air it will change color from straw to purple to blue to yellowish or grayish white to white. I avoid getting it hotter than the purple or blue temps. If you do form white oxide on the wire you can clean it off and start over (at least I've done that and I'm still alive lol).

 

[jks89]

I have seen different values. One forum post claims 600F for the blue. A technical book on titanium claims 700F for yellow, 900F for blue and 1200F for dull grey.

If I remember right the amount of time at a given temperature is also relevant. I'm making up numbers here, but for example 600F for 10 seconds vs. 600F for 20 seconds could give you different colors.

 

[awsum140]

Yes. If you increase the wire temp slowly in free air it will change color from straw to purple to blue to yellowish or grayish white to white. I avoid getting it hotter than the purple or blue temps. If you do form white oxide on the wire you can clean it off and start over (at least I've done that and I'm still alive lol).

I have to ask...You created that oxide layer when heating the wire prior to winding the coil, right? Trying to clean the oxide off of a wound coil would be a real challenge and, probably, result in a severely distorted coil.

 

[Mad Scientist]

I have to ask...You created that oxide layer when heating the wire prior to winding the coil, right? Trying to clean the oxide off of a wound coil would be a real challenge and, probably, result in a severely distorted coil.

Yes, I anneal and oxidize a five or six inch (depends on what I plan to wrap) big loop in free air, then wrap a coil with that. The Ti gets nice and soft, almost no spring back, and turns purple/blue.

 

[awsum140]

Just wanted to clarify that since the subject of dry burning came up and didn't want to have any cornfusion.

 

[jks89]

How do you guys decide when it's time to wrap a new coil?

 

[LouisLeBeau]

Yes, I anneal and oxidize a five or six inch (depends on what I plan to wrap) big loop in free air, then wrap a coil with that. The Ti gets nice and soft, almost no spring back, and turns purple/blue.

Question for you MS. When you do it like this, does the wire heat evenly from end to end? It seems pulsing usually heats the middle much more, decreasing outward. This might be my answer to getting an even oxide layer on my Ti coils!

 

[Bunnykiller]

I wonder how many have actually read the MSDS for TiO2....

 

[Angel Eyes]

Hi everybody. Is it possible to dry burn titanium coils? Well, actually, I understand that everything is possible)) What is negative about titanium dry burning?

the negative is that we are not at this point sure, from a science standpoint, whether this causes oxides of titanium to form and whether these oxides could be contained in the vapor you get, and this would be harmful to your lungs, so to be on the safe side, you are better off just cleaning your gunked up titanium coil with water or rubbing alcohol and an old toothbrush, until more is known.

 

[2legsshrt]

I have seen different values. One forum post claims 600F for the blue. A technical book on titanium claims 700F for yellow, 900F for blue and 1200F for dull grey.

I only pulse it on Ni mode at 250F just till the little wisp of smoke comes off. I figure that is enough since I only vape at a slightly higher temp and I use a coiler to wrap a contact coil then stretch it to a spaced coil the annealing process doesn't really make a big diff. Seems to work just fine. I guess it's whatever works for you.

 

[Mad Scientist]

Question for you MS. When you do it like this, does the wire heat evenly from end to end? It seems pulsing usually heats the middle much more, decreasing outward. This might be my answer to getting an even oxide layer on my Ti coils!

I make a big round loop (just a circle from one post to the other -- doesn't have to be perfect) and it heats evenly from end to end except for about 1cm on each end where the wire has the atty connections as a heat sink.

 

[2legsshrt]

How do you guys decide when it's time to wrap a new coil?

What I do is use it for 3+ weeks depending on how much I use that particular atty, clean it once with hot water and a brush rewick and go till it starts tasting like it needs rewicking again and recoil it at that point. On the one I use the most about 5-6 weeks total. I suppose I could clean it again but a new coil tastes much better and it is not a big deal wrapping a new one.

 

[WideO]

I wonder how many have actually read the MSDS for TiO2....

I admit I hadn't until 5 minutes ago. Based on what I can understand I will keep avoiding it, but I will also not freak out if I accidentally inhale it, as I don't think - but I could be absolutely wrong, YMMV, etc - occasional exposure on the scale we are talking about, like a hot leg, will do much harm.

 

[BigEgo]

I wonder how many have actually read the MSDS for TiO2....

MSDS's are useless for our purposes. According to MSDS's, everything will kill you, including H2O. MSDS sheets are the ultimate in fear mongering and are nothing but a way for corporations to avoid lawsuits. What they don't tell you is that the dose makes the poison.

The main concern with Ti is the oxide layer. This oxide layer exists at room temperature, so it's always there regardless of whether we dry burn or not. This is why I think the concern about TiO2 (titanium dioxide) is overblown. No studies I have seen show a link between TiO2 and cancer in humans (and multiple ones have been done on factory workers). The reason IARC lists it as a class B carcinogen is because of a couple of studies in rodents, but the human data do not correlate to the animal studies at all.

But it all comes down to particle size. Research shows that he smaller the size, the more risk it poses. But this is true of almost all nanoparticles.

 

[sofarsogood]

I made my first Ti coil a few hours ago, 28 guage, 3 mm, spaced, 0.75 ohm, 350 degrees, 20 max watts, so far so good. I'm trying Ti hoping to improve battery efficiency. My reasoning is ohm's law applies the same. According to the Steam engine calculator a .75 ohm Ti coil rises to around 1.6 ohm at 480 degrees which would make the coil similar in efficiency to the 1.6 ohm kanthal coils I used to make. I'm spoiled by being able to leave the house with an iStick 50w and have it last for days. I'd like to get something approaching that from temp control. Is any of this making sense? Sorry I didn't read most of the previous posts.

 

[tchavei]

MSDS's are useless for our purposes. According to MSDS's, everything will kill you, including H2O. MSDS sheets are the ultimate in fear mongering and are nothing but a way for corporations to avoid lawsuits. What they don't tell you is that the dose makes the poison.

The main concern with Ti is the oxide layer. This oxide layer exists at room temperature, so it's always there regardless of whether we dry burn or not. This is why I think the concern about TiO2 (titanium dioxide) is overblown. No studies I have seen show a link between TiO2 and cancer in humans (and multiple ones have been done on factory workers). The reason IARC lists it as a class B carcinogen is because of a couple of studies in rodents, but the human data do not correlate to the animal studies at all.

But it all comes down to particle size. Research shows that he smaller the size, the more risk it poses. But this is true of almost all nanoparticles.

Well to be fair, there was one study about a guy that worked for 18 years in the packaging section (the area with highest airborne TiO2 concentration) of a titanium oxide production factory who had developed cancer. The investigators tried to rise doubts and suggest it could be from the TiO2 exposure but if you checked the subjects history, you would have noticed a little detail... He was a two PAD smoker for over 40 years... I don't know... Gee... I wonder if THAT had something to do with his illness...?

No other study could establish any connection between lung disease and titanium factory workers. Bear in mind those guys are exposed to one million times higher concentrations than the average person and I don't think you can't compare sucking on a Ti coil to industrial TiO2 dust.

Funny thing is that, in the study, cancer occurrence in the Ti factory group was slightly lower than in the control group.

One could argue that contact with Ti reduces cancer risks [emoji14]

I'm honestly not worried.

Oh, and by the way... That study on rodents... Those creatures were exposed to a permanent haze of TiO2 for weeks and weeks in a row. I'm surprised they only got serious lung inflammation. I would have expected them choking to death.

None developed cancer. All injuries healed once the TiO2 haze was removed (you could notice a tone of disappointment in the investigator's writing).

Regards
Tony

Sent from my keyboard through my phone or something like that.

 

[druckle]

Well to be fair, there was one study about a guy that worked for 18 years in the packaging section (the area with highest airborne TiO2 concentration) of a titanium oxide production factory who had developed cancer. The investigators tried to rise doubts and suggest it could be from the TiO2 exposure but if you checked the subjects history, you would have noticed a little detail... He was a two PAD smoker for over 40 years... I don't know... Gee... I wonder if THAT had something to do with his illness...?

No other study could establish any connection between lung disease and titanium factory workers. Bear in mind those guys are exposed to one million times higher concentrations than the average person and I don't think you can't compare sucking on a Ti coil to industrial TiO2 dust.

Funny thing is that, in the study, cancer occurrence in the Ti factory group was slightly lower than in the control group.

One could argue that contact with Ti reduces cancer risks [emoji14]

I'm honestly not worried.

Oh, and by the way... That study on rodents... Those creatures were exposed to a permanent haze of TiO2 for weeks and weeks in a row. I'm surprised they only got serious lung inflammation. I would have expected them choking to death.

None developed cancer. All injuries healed once the TiO2 haze was removed (you could notice a tone of disappointment in the investigator's writing).

Regards
Tony

Sent from my keyboard through my phone or something like that.

Tony

It's not considered to be entirely fair to bring up facts in such discussions in some quarters.

Duane