Tobacco extraction using heated Ethanol

[Exchaner]

Does anyone have a recommendation for dark Virginia in the form of dry leaves? I am trying to replicate NS Dark from net.com.

NS Dark

 

[Bunnykiller]

Double extracts are proving to be more difficult to reduce, 50ml heated to 140F in an electric oven took -six- hours to achieve a ~50% reduction. Not really a problem, just an observation.

did you post this double extraction process? if so will you link it...

 

[jonnydoe]

St8, i have some questions about your tutorial from the first page of the thread:

the hot water bath, add enough warm water to the bath to match the level of ethanol inside the container. Process for 12 hours, check periodically and add water to the bath if needed.

1. Does it matter how long, 12, 14 or 24 hours ?

2. Is it better to steep the ethanol tobacco mixture after the heating before putting it in the freezer ? Or
transferring the ethanol tobacco mixture after heating into pg and than steeping the pg with the
tobacco for example for 2 weeks before the first filtering ?

3. Does it matter how long you put the filtered ethanol in the freezer, 1-2 day or a week for example ?

4. Does it matter if you use 1 mycrometer or for example 5 mycrometer filters ?

5. Do you steep the extract for a few weeks or can i taste it for example after a day ?

6. Is there a difference at the result between flakes and for example rolling tobaccos ?

7. Have you ever tried other methods to separate waxes and oils ?

8. At the end after transferring in pg: How much should i try from the extract into my pg/vg base for the ready juice ?
10-25% ?
9. You dont transfer the flavouring into the pg. Dont you taste the ethanol ? The ethanol have to transfer in the blood ?

10. If i transfer the flavours from the ethanol to pg. Is their no risk to lose some flavours ? At wich temperature does
pg and vg begin to evaporate ?

A lot of questions and sorry because of the mistakes in my english, i am german.

 

[Str8vision]

did you post this double extraction process? if so will you link it...

I haven't yet posted a detailed step by step procedure but did post an abstract of it;

...............I'm going to try something new when extracting the Rocky Patel v'90 cigar I received in the last P&C shipment. I'll perform a two stage, double exposure extraction.

1/2 of the cigar is shredded and placed in a half pint canning jar. More ethanol will be used than a normal hot extraction, enough to cover the shredded tobacco and 50% extra (instead of 15%), added. Sealed glass container, moderate vacuum applied and a 48 hour room temperature soak. After 48 hours, the vacuum is released and the extraction is heated to 160F for 12 hours. After 12 hours has elapsed the tobacco and solvent (now an extract), is separated and the extract is placed in the freezer for 36 hours, filtered through a coffee filter and allowed to warm to room temperature. The second half of the cigar is now shredded and added to the extract. The extraction process is repeated using the extract as the extraction solvent for the second half of the cigar. After freeze filtering the -double- extract will be reduced by 80%.

May just end up wasting half of a good cigar but I'm going to find out just how much flavor I can pack into an extract.

I ended up using this double extraction method for 5 different tobaccos at the same time, I've only sampled two of them so far. I changed my mind and only used enough ethanol to cover the tobacco and then added 30% extra (instead of 50%). Freeze filtering for the second extraction round was allowed 3 days freezer time as I had family visiting. I only reduced the double extracts by 50%, not the 80% I originally posted.

 

[Str8vision]

St8, i have some questions about your tutorial from the first page of the thread:



1. Does it matter how long, 12, 14 or 24 hours ?

2. Is it better to steep the ethanol tobacco mixture after the heating before putting it in the freezer ? Or
transferring the ethanol tobacco mixture after heating into pg and than steeping the pg with the
tobacco for example for 2 weeks before the first filtering ?

3. Does it matter how long you put the filtered ethanol in the freezer, 1-2 day or a week for example ?

4. Does it matter if you use 1 mycrometer or for example 5 mycrometer filters ?

5. Do you steep the extract for a few weeks or can i taste it for example after a day ?

6. Is there a difference at the result between flakes and for example rolling tobaccos ?

7. Have you ever tried other methods to separate waxes and oils ?

8. At the end after transferring in pg: How much should i try from the extract into my pg/vg base for the ready juice ?
10-25% ?
9. You dont transfer the flavouring into the pg. Dont you taste the ethanol ? The ethanol have to transfer in the blood ?

10. If i transfer the flavours from the ethanol to pg. Is their no risk to lose some flavours ? At wich temperature does
pg and vg begin to evaporate ?

A lot of questions and sorry because of the mistakes in my english, i am german.

1. Yes it matters, 12 hours @ 160F. Start the clock when the your macerated tobacco reaches 160F.
2. No steeping required, just let it cool to room temperature and once you've separated the tobacco from solvent (now an extract), seal the extract and place it in the freezer. Since freeze filtering only works with ethanol you don't transfer the flavor to PG or VG at this time. After the freeze filtering process is complete, filter your ethanol based extract before transferring the flavor to PG or VG, ethanol is far easier/faster to filter.
3. A minimum of 36 hours in the freezer is recommended, extra time (like a week), doesn't hurt a thing but neither does it seem to provide any additional benefit that I can tell.
4. Filtering removes particulates (suspended solid particles), 1 micron retention will "catch" more particulates than will 5 micron. I'd recommend using 2 - 3 micron retention for a good clean NET but 5 micron will work, just a little gunkier is all.
5. I usually mix 120ml of NET once the final filtering is complete and sample it on the spot (dripper), it wont taste as good freshly mixed as well aged NET will but it does provide a good indication of what I can expect from the well aged NET.
6. From my experience the actual cut of the tobacco makes little difference as long as it is shredded. Caked/sliced tobacco needs to broken up into very small pieces, leaf tobacco should be dried and shredded before extraction.
7. Before freeze filtering I would simply allow extract to sit undisturbed for a week or two so that any free oil would coalesce and form a skim. I'd then filter the extract through filter felt, much of the coalesced oil would cling to the fuzzy felt. Unfortunately, dissolved oil would remain in the extract clogging wicks and gunking coils.
8. For a hot ethanol extract that was reduced by 75% I'd start at around 7% and adjust to taste. If you transfer the flavor to PG or VG properly the mix percentage should stay about the same but could increase depending on your transfer methods/results.
9. At 3 - 7% I personally don't taste or smell the ethanol, as far as I can tell it has -0- effect when vaped.
10. Neither PG nor VG will evaporate or boil at the temperatures we need for extraction and reduction. The flavor molecules we extract are heat sensitive which is why processing temperatures are kept low. Properly transferred you should lose no flavor but if you end up with more volume of liquid after the transfer the flavor will be more diluted. Transferred flavor needs to be aged allowing time for it to "meld" into the new base.

A lot of questions and sorry because of the mistakes in my english, i am german.

Some very well thought out questions, and I think your English is -vastly- better than my German.

 

[jonnydoe]

Wow ! So many questions and so many answeres. Thank you very much.

And one more question: How can i be sure that i have evaporated only the ethanol and not the pg ? What is the evaporating temperature of PG ?

 

[usr/]

1. Yes it matters, 12 hours @ 160F. Start the clock when the your macerated tobacco reaches 160F.
2. No steeping required, just let it cool to room temperature and once you've separated the tobacco from solvent (now an extract), seal the extract and place it in the freezer. Since freeze filtering only works with ethanol you don't transfer the flavor to PG or VG at this time. After the freeze filtering process is complete, filter your ethanol based extract before transferring the flavor to PG or VG, ethanol is far easier/faster to filter.
3. A minimum of 36 hours in the freezer is recommended, extra time (like a week), doesn't hurt a thing but neither does it seem to provide any additional benefit that I can tell.
4. Filtering removes particulates (suspended solid particles), 1 micron retention will "catch" more particulates than will 5 micron. I'd recommend using 2 - 3 micron retention for a good clean NET but 5 micron will work, just a little gunkier is all.
5. I usually mix 120ml of NET once the final filtering is complete and sample it on the spot (dripper), it wont taste as good freshly mixed as well aged NET will but it does provide a good indication of what I can expect from the well aged NET.
6. From my experience the actual cut of the tobacco makes little difference as long as it is shredded. Caked/sliced tobacco needs to broken up into very small pieces, leaf tobacco should be dried and shredded before extraction.
7. Before freeze filtering I would simply allow extract to sit undisturbed for a week or two so that any free oil would coalesce and form a skim. I'd then filter the extract through filter felt, much of the coalesced oil would cling to the fuzzy felt. Unfortunately, dissolved oil would remain in the extract clogging wicks and gunking coils.
8. For a hot ethanol extract that was reduced by 75% I'd start at around 7% and adjust to taste. If you transfer the flavor to PG or VG properly the mix percentage should stay about the same but could increase depending on your transfer methods/results.
9. At 3 - 7% I personally don't taste or smell the ethanol, as far as I can tell it has -0- effect when vaped.
10. Neither PG nor VG will evaporate or boil at the temperatures we need for extraction and reduction. The flavor molecules we extract are heat sensitive which is why processing temperatures are kept low. Properly transferred you should lose no flavor but if you end up with more volume of liquid after the transfer the flavor will be more diluted. Transferred flavor needs to be aged allowing time for it to "meld" into the new base.

Some very well thought out questions, and I think your English is -vastly- better than my German.

This is some great information! Thanks again!

 

[Str8vision]

And one more question: How can i be sure that i have evaporated only the ethanol and not the pg ? What is the evaporating temperature of PG ?

PG doesn't boil until reaching 370F. At room temperature and even 150F it doesn't readily "evaporate" which is why tobacco blenders treat pipe tobacco with it, to preserve moistness.

To transfer flavor start by reducing your ethanol extract by 80%. After reduction, gauge how many ml of extract are left. Whatever the amount, add that much PG and mix well. Heat mixture in a shallow, wide container to 140 - 150F until most of the remaining ethanol is evaporated off. Cool to room temperature, bottle and or mix it. Allow any freshly mixed NET to age for at least one month, two is even better.

 

[jonnydoe]

At least one month ? Oh, no. Waiting is hell

Have you perhaps also done experience referring shorter steeping times Doc Str8 ?

 

[Str8vision]

If it tastes good fresh there's absolutely nothing wrong with vaping it. Might have to mix it a tad bit stronger to compensate for the lack of aging but whatever works! Trial and error are my greatest allies in the never-ending quest for better flavor.

 

[Bunnykiller]

so basically you are soaking tobacco in an unreduced extract? ( with this 2 stage idea? )

 

[Bunnykiller]

interesting concept for doing dual flavored tobaccos nets

 

[Str8vision]

so basically you are soaking tobacco in an unreduced extract? ( with this 2 stage idea? )

Exactly. Double exposure.

 

[Str8vision]

interesting concept for doing dual flavored tobaccos nets

Right now I'm just double extracting the same tobacco.... but..... Imagine the possibilities of using one tobacco for the first round and a completely different tobacco for the second round. Anything's possible, the only limit is our imagination and curiosity.

 

[Str8vision]

Another potential application/benefit for "multiple" exposure extractions involves ethanol efficiency. Many people live in countries where 95% ethanol is very expensive and or difficult to obtain. Imagine buying four packs of Natural Spirit cigarettes and extracting all of them, one pack at a time, using the same 150ml of ethanol for each extraction. You'd end up with a 4X strength extract so potent that it wouldn't even need to be reduced. If you had 100ml left after tobacco and filter losses, when mixed at 5% it would make 2 liters of NET, having used only 150ml of ethanol to do so. Traditional extraction methods (4 separate extractions), would have required 500 - 600ml of ethanol to yield the same results. Food for thought.

 

[gt_1955]

Very good point mate, I hadn't thought of it that way

 

[jonnydoe]

PG doesn't boil until reaching 370F. At room temperature and even 150F it doesn't readily "evaporate" which is why tobacco blenders treat pipe tobacco with it, to preserve moistness.

To transfer flavor start by reducing your ethanol extract by 80%. After reduction, gauge how many ml of extract are left. Whatever the amount, add that much PG and mix well. Heat mixture in a shallow, wide container to 140 - 150F until most of the remaining ethanol is evaporated off. Cool to room temperature, bottle and or mix it. Allow any freshly mixed NET to age for at least one month, two is even better.

I am at the reducing step and i have forgotten it. I have mixted the ethanol with pg and put it in the jars and in the waterbath of my sous vide at 150°F.

I have some silly questions, sorry:

1. Reducing to 80%. Than you have only 20% after doing this or do you mean you will have than 80%.
2. I am waiting now for 1 hour but the ethanol will not evaporate in the water bath, only the water will.
Is it better for example in a oven ?

 

[Str8vision]

I am at the reducing step and i have forgotten it. I have mixted the ethanol with pg and put it in the jars and in the waterbath of my sous vide at 150°F.

I have some silly questions, sorry:

1. Reducing to 80%. Than you have only 20% after doing this or do you mean you will have than 80%.
2. I am waiting now for 1 hour but the ethanol will not evaporate in the water bath, only the water will.
Is it better for example in a oven ?

You first reduce the ethanol extract by 80% -before- adding any PG to it. Once PG is added it's much more difficult to reduce the ethanol. For reducing an extract I use an electric oven set at 140F, there's no humidity in an electric oven it produces a dry heat. I've also reduced an extract at room temperature setting a fan to blow across it, works quite well but takes a day or two. I don't use jars for the reduction, I use a wide shallow container that maximizes air-to-extract contact.

How much extract did you have and how much PG did you add to it? Had the extract been reduced any before you added the PG?

 

[jonnydoe]

I have forgotten to reduce. I have had ca. 60ml ethanol extract and have taken 60ml pg, so i have 120ml. Its in a jar in the oven now at 150°F. I will go to 140°F now. I have no wide shallow container. I must buy one.

You first reduce the ethanol extract by 80% -before- adding any PG to it.

Sorry, its my english. I do not understand what you mean with the words "by 80%". If you have 100% before. After reducing you will have 80% or only 20% of the 100 ?

 

[Str8vision]

If I had 100ml of extract and reduced it by 80% I would have 20ml left. I would then add 20ml of PG to it and mix it really well, I then would have 40ml of extract (20ml ethanol, 20ml PG). I would then reduce that down to 25ml or so and I'm done.