Tobacco extraction using heated Ethanol

[kbriggs]

Is the weather humid in your location? 7 hours in the oven seems a bit too long - especially if you used 195 proof. I usually use a small shallow bowl with a wide mouth for evaporation.

190 proof, but yeah I'm in Houston and it's very humid outdoors. I'm surprised that would matter inside a heated oven inside an air conditioned house. I stopped it last night after 8.5 hours and weighed it and it was as 49% reduction at that point. Overnight at room temp it went to 52%. I've got it back in the oven now.

I thought about putting it in a ceramic cereal bowl to maximize the exposed surface area but then it's harder to gauge the level. But I guess I could have just removed it every so often and weighed it.

 

[kbriggs]

Yup.....and I just set that bowl in a closed cabinet. Within 48 to 72 hrs of open air evap., the mix is usually down to 25% of the original amount.

But that sorts of defeats the whole purpose of using heated PGA extraction to begin with (speed). Certainly less hassle, though.

 

[Str8vision]

I've reduced ethanol extracts using a wide variety of methods and early on was focused more on speed rather than quality. During my quest for speed I found the fastest way to reduce an extract was using a wide but shallow clear Pyrex container in a convection oven set at 150F, with the circulating hot dry air it only takes minutes (<1 hour). I've also reduced extracts at room temperature in front of a fan, only takes hours (<1 day) when using a wide, shallow container. But I discovered speed came at a price I'm personally not willing to pay, quality. After freeze filtering I now leave the extracts inside the canning jars that were used for the extraction process. I let them set open air at room temperature (four to five days) to achieve an 80% reduction. This -extra time- is necessary to allow remaining oils that drop out of solution during reduction to coalesce and form a skim or globules. Once coalesced these oils are -very sticky- and cling to the walls of the jar, the rest will -tenaciously- cling to the filter during final filtration. Just like freeze filtering, this step makes for a cleaner better performing NET. Conversely, I could "speed" reduce the extract, seal the container and allow the reduced extract to sit for five days before final filtering.

But that sorts of defeats the whole purpose of using heated PGA extraction to begin with (speed). Certainly less hassle, though.

-For me- the main purpose of using hot ethanol isn't speed. It's that the resulting extract can be freeze filtered precipitating out of solution much of the undesirable gunk leeched from the tobacco during flavor extraction process, yielding a cleaner extract/NET. Neither PG nor VG can be freeze filtered, the undesirable gunk leeched from the tobacco during flavor extraction stays in solution and therefore in the extract/NET. I also enjoy the higher flavor notes ethanol pulls from the tobacco. I chase flavor first and performance second, speed isn't a major concern for me these days because I have vast quantities of well aged extracts sitting in my cabinet. In fact I no longer process ethanol extractions @ 160F for 12 hours. I currently use a two stage extraction process (100 hours @ 130F followed by a 144 hour room temperature soak) that takes around ten days to complete. From the time I start an extraction till the point it's filtered and ready to use takes about 18 days total. Certainly nothing fast about that but I'm in no hurry. Three years ago was a different story, I didn't have a well stocked cabinet of NETs.

 

[Exchaner]

I currently use a two stage extraction process (100 hours @ 130F followed by a 144 hour room temperature soak) that takes around ten days to complete.

I need to try this. Have you seen any difference in flavor with the old concept? What about clarity of the solution.

 

[kbriggs]

in a convection oven set at 150F, with the circulating hot dry air it only takes minutes (<1 hour). I've also reduced extracts at room temperature in front of a fan

Yeah, that air movement is likely the key. I don't have a convection oven. I'm currently up to 65% reduction but that's after nearly 12 hours of heat so far.

 

[Str8vision]

I need to try this. Have you seen any difference in flavor with the old concept? What about clarity of the solution.

I've been working on this method for some time, the goal was to pull more flavor from select types of tobacco (like cigars) while using lower less harmful processing temperatures. It accomplishes this but it also pulls more oil too. I'm in the process of tweaking the time and temperature used for the hot stage of this extraction method but I do highly recommend performing a room temperature soak following -any- heated ethanol based extraction, seems to boost the flavor depth. The resulting extracts are much darker in color yet the clarity is still in line with a typical ethanol extractions. Some of the extracts (especially once reduced) are so dark they're completely opaque but when mixed the resulting NETs are highly translucent and range in color from light tan to a golden brown. I've never really had any issues with clarity but that could be due to the binderless 1 micron glass filter paper I use for final filtration. I was lucky enough to have bought them while on sale for 80% off their "normal" price a couple of years ago.

Another change I've incorporated is that I'm using 10 - 15% more ethanol for each extraction. I add just enough ethanol to cover the tobacco and then 25% more. Twice or more each day I invert the sealed containers (turn them upside down) and back upright several times to move the extra ethanol around the tobacco. I would like to find some way of slowly circulating the ethanol during the entire extraction process, I have a few ideas but have yet to try them. I believe that constant slow circulation of the extraction solvent would reduce the required processing time while increasing flavor depth, but it's just a hunch.

 

[Str8vision]

Yeah, that air movement is likely the key. I don't have a convection oven. I'm currently up to 65% reduction but that's after nearly 12 hours of heat so far.

Room temperature reduction using a fan isn't quite as fast as heating the extract to 150F in an oven but it does completely eliminate heat from the reduction process. I don't know it for a fact but "believe" that excess heat tends to harm/diminish the flavor molecules we extract from tobacco. That's why I'm always trying to find ways of reducing or eliminating heat wherever possible.

 

[nostradadus]

I'm in the process of tweaking the time and temperature used for the hot stage of this extraction method but I do highly recommend performing a room temperature soak following -any- heated ethanol based extraction, seems to boost the flavor depth.

I've played around with doing four rounds of freeze/thaw with the tobacco moistened with PGA prior to the heat extraction. My thinking was to aid in the break down of the leaf prior to the heat process. Did it make a difference? Maybe? All I know is that it was some tasty NET at 20% in the mix after a 6 month steep process.

Tobacco used: Peter Stokkebye London Export

 

[kbriggs]

Room temperature reduction using a fan isn't quite as fast as heating the extract to 150F in an oven but it does completely eliminate heat from the reduction process.

Well I just ordered this 18650-powered fan from Amazon so I'm going give that a try next time. Plus it'll come in handy when I'm vaping outside on the patio in the Texas heat:

Amazon.com: Bengoo Portable Fan USB Mini Desktop Desk Table Electric Rechargeable Fan for laptop room office outdoor travel: Cell Phones & Accessories

By the way, I finally got my 75% PGA reduction after 14 hours of oven heat. I filtered it one more time with 2.5 micron paper and ended up with about 14 g of concentrated extract. I then mixed that up at 7% and it is surprisingly good, especially considering this was my first NET extraction ever and the cigar was cheap, old, and dry. I've got an ACID Blondie and a few pipe tobaccos due to be delivered today to try next.

 

[Str8vision]

I've played around with doing four rounds of freeze/thaw with the tobacco moistened with PGA prior to the heat extraction. My thinking was to aid in the break down of the leaf prior to the heat process. Did it make a difference? Maybe? All I know is that it was some tasty NET at 20% in the mix after a 6 month steep process.

Tobacco used: Peter Stokkebye London Export

Only problem is ethanol doesn't freeze solid so freeze/thaw cycles won't break the tobacco down. Only water would do that (freeze solid and expand) but then the tobacco would be saturated with water.

Along those lines, I've contemplated running tobacco through a coffee grinder before extracting it. One thought is that flavor extraction might be faster/easier but the other thought is more undesirable gunk might end up in the extract.... Sounds like a interesting experiment anyways.

I haven't extracted Peter Stokkebye's "London Export", can you describe the flavor?

 

[Str8vision]

Well I just ordered this 18650-powered fan from Amazon so I'm going give that a try next time. Plus it'll come in handy when I'm vaping outside on the patio in the Texas heat:

Amazon.com: Bengoo Portable Fan USB Mini Desktop Desk Table Electric Rechargeable Fan for laptop room office outdoor travel: Cell Phones & Accessories

By the way, I finally got my 75% PGA reduction after 14 hours of oven heat. I filtered it one more time with 2.5 micron paper and ended up with about 14 g of concentrated extract. I then mixed that up at 7% and it is surprisingly good, especially considering this was my first NET extraction ever and the cigar was cheap, old, and dry. I've got an ACID Blondie and a few pipe tobaccos due to be delivered today to try next.

I'm familiar with sweltering Texas heat/humidity and think this fan might be better suited for keeping you cool while vaping on the patio Amazon.com: Bannon Enclosed Motor Direct Drive Drum Fan - 48in., 20,885 CFM: Home & Kitchen

I gotta warn you about DIY tobacco extraction, it's highly addictive, embarrassingly inexpensive -AND- immensely satisfying. It's also a handy skill to have when considering the regs/taxes on the distant horizon. I'll be enjoying NETs that still cost pennies per ml to make when others are paying dollars for the same. Glad your first extraction turned out well, I think you'll like the Blondie, it's one of my favorites.

 

[Exchaner]

Since I do not have easy access to 190 proof in my location, I am running an experiment to see if I can minimize its use by combining it with ISO alcohol - 46% Ethanol, 46% ISO and 8% water. Currently steeping the sample to see if the taste is any different from Ethanol extraction. The color is exactly the same as with Ethanol. I do know ISO by itself does not perform that well. Will report back in three weeks.

 

[kbriggs]

I gotta warn you about DIY tobacco extraction, it's highly addictive

Oh, I'm familiar. I've been doing "regular" DIY for about 15 months and have a shelf full of about 150 flavorings to prove it, including about a dozen artificial tobaccos, none of which are any good.

I think you'll like the Blondie

I ordered two, one to extract and one to smoke (you know, purely for research purposes). Hopefully tonight if the USPS ever shows up.

By the way, I brought in the large fan I normally keep in the garage and am using it to do a PGA to PG replacement in my reduced extract at room temp. I added 13.3 g of PG to the 13.3 g of PGA extract that I had remaining. After the first hour, I've already evaporated 14% of the total (28% of the PGA) so it's already working better than my oven evaporation. I'm curious to see how close I can get to eliminating all of it. I assume none of the PG will evaporate, is that correct?

 

[nostradadus]

Peter Stokkebye's "London Export", can you describe the flavor?

It is a slightly sweet, mature but yet bright, very Virginia flavor. The sweet may come from the 50% VG used in the mix. But, with nothing else in the mix other than PG/VG and nicotine it was very nice to vape the same thing I smoked for way too many years!

 

[Str8vision]

Oh, I'm familiar. I've been doing "regular" DIY for about 15 months and have a shelf full of about 150 flavorings to prove it, including about a dozen artificial tobaccos, none of which are any good.



I ordered two, one to extract and one to smoke (you know, purely for research purposes). Hopefully tonight if the USPS ever shows up.

By the way, I brought in the large fan I normally keep in the garage and am using it to do a PGA to PG replacement in my reduced extract at room temp. I added 13.3 g of PG to the 13.3 g of PGA extract that I had remaining. After the first hour, I've already evaporated 14% of the total (28% of the PGA) so it's already working better than my oven evaporation. I'm curious to see how close I can get to eliminating all of it. I assume none of the PG will evaporate, is that correct?

PG won't really evaporate or dissipate in the amount of time that'll be involved. You should be able to evaporate about 90% of the PGA off but the 5% water content typically contained in PGA will remain locked up (absorbed) in the PG. PG is so hygroscopic it may even absorb a ml or two of moisture directly from the surrounding air while open and exposed. The water taken in doesn't exist in a free state but is actually absorbed and therefore nearly impossible to remove.

 

[kbriggs]

You should be able to evaporate about 90% of the PGA off but the 5% water content typically contained in PGA will remain locked up (absorbed) in the PG.

I noticed that the evaporation really slowed down after the first hour. I've eliminated 64% of the PGA so far with the fan at room temp but now the extract is full of solid looking particles that weren't there after the initial 75% reduction. I'm going to have to do another filtering at the end of this step.

 

[Exchaner]

but now the extract is full of solid looking particles that weren't there after the initial 75% reduction. I'm going to have to do another filtering at the end of this step.

Those particles will dissolve once you shake the liquid. They are not to be discarded. They usually appear when you are nearing the limits of the evaporation process. I am not too enthusiastic about filtering a reduce solution since you invariably will lose some of the flavor molecules. But if Stra8 has done it successfully, there might be no harm in doing it.

 

[kbriggs]

Those particles will dissolve once you shake the liquid.

I've been swirling the jar around every hour or so and they aren't dissolving, just growing in number.

 

[Exchaner]

I've been swirling the jar around every hour or so and they aren't dissolving, just growing in number.

I usually shake mine vigorously in a bottle. Swirling won't get it, but it you touch the particles with a fork, or a glass bar, you should see them come apart. And BTW, since you are measuring by weight, an 80% reduction in weight does not necessarily translate into volume. Specific gravity of alcohol is less than other ingredients in your solution.

 

[Aurora Indica]

Hi all, i have been following this thread for about two weeks and have finally decided to join this community. Many thanks to the original poster Str8vision . I have tried your method and am getting pretty exciting results. Btw, when steeping the extract, is it enough to just let the extract itself sit, or should we mix it into PG/juice mix and then let it sit?