FDA TVECA post table of contents for Deeming Final Rule

[Kent C]

Wonder if TPSAC ever considered the pH levels in e-liquids.

There's a study out there entitled :"Bringing attention to e-cigarette pH as an important element for research and regulation", Irina Stepanov1,; Naomi Fujioka2; but you have to pay for access. Of course the pH was factor in nic absorption - probably something the FDA could regulate :- )

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[zoiDman]

ban cold weather and/or humidity?

They tried that. The Unforeseen Ramification was Global Warming. But that's another Story.



No, if I was doing it. I would just Limit whatever it is in an e-liquid that Makes the Clouds.

And it would be an Easy Sell because I would say that I was Reducing the Perception of Smoking by Limiting Vapor Production. Which leads to Less Kids seeing it. Which leads to Less Kids vaping which yada yada yada.

Not saying that Any of this is Going to Happen. But I would think that Vapers would be at Least be Thinking about could they Change what PG:VG Ratios that are going to be Available? Or is Everything just going to stay just like it is Now?

 

[v3nom151]

I'm sorry, but that's absolutely preposterous.

Why is that? Would you like to elaborate?

 

[snork]

Why is that? Would you like to elaborate?

No, not particularly.

 

[Lessifer]

Just my own personal view, but I treat any unconfirmed leaks as a theory.

Is there any evidence that lower pH e-liquid actually deteriorates the metal in our atomizers/coils to a perceptible degree? I've never heard anything about this.

 

[Lessifer]

They tried that. The Unforeseen Ramification was Global Warming. But that's another Story.



No, if I was doing it. I would just Limit whatever it is in an e-Liquid that Makes the Clouds.

And it would be an Easy Sell because I would say that I was Reducing the Perception of Smoking by Limiting Vapor Production. Which leads to Less Kids seeing it. Which leads to Less Kids Vaping which yada yada yada.

Not saying that Any of this is Going to Happen. But I would think that Vapers would be at Least be Thinking about could they Change what PG:VG Ratios that are going to be Available? Or is Everything just going to stay just like it is Now?

If the worst thing that happens is I have to add my own vg to e-liquid(which I actually already do to cut nic level) I'd be a happy camper.

 

[v3nom151]

No, not particularly.

If you had information that's contradicts my previous statement, please post it. I just think it makes sense if you consider all aspects of e-liquid and what goes into it. An acidic solution can cause metals to deteriorate. This ultimately comes down to what the atomizer is made of, and how it reacts to a potentially acidic e-liquid. This may happen in an extremely slow process, but happens nonetheless.

 

[nicnik]

Lessifer said: ↑
ban cold weather and/or humidity?

They tried that. The Unforeseen Ramification was Global Warming. But that's another Story.

LOL!

 

[nicnik]

No, not particularly.

Doesn't seem too far-fetched to me. It's a consideration with food products.

 

[zoiDman]

If the worst thing that happens is I have to add my own vg to e-liquid(which I actually already do to cut nic level) I'd be a happy camper.

Yeah... Adding some VG wouldn't be the End of the World.

I'm not sure where I saw the Perception Study on The Amount of Vapor Production effecting Never Smokers and Adolescences? I have been Inundated lately with Links.

But I think it was on This Page...

Grants: Research Portfolio ‒ FDA NIH Tobacco Product Regulation | NIH Office of Disease Prevention (ODP)

 

[v3nom151]

Just my own personal view, but I treat any unconfirmed leaks as a theory.

Is there any evidence that lower pH e-liquid actually deteriorates the metal in our atomizers/coils to a perceptible degree? I've never heard anything about this.

I haven't heard of this either. It hasn't been a topic of conversation up until our conversation with the lawyers. The deterioration can be negligible, but must be considered if this was a topic.

 

[snork]

Doesn't seem too far-fetched to me. It's a consideration with food products.

Here's the deal. If the pH of juice is going to be the next source of angst for the health conscious vaper, let's just hang it up now, alright?

 

[Jman8]

Here's the deal. If the pH of juice is going to be the next source of angst for the health conscious vaper, let's just hang it up now, alright?

Can't we just vote for someone that will look out for our pH concerns? Or get a bunch of signatures to change their mind on this? One of those has to work.

 

[nicnik]

Here's the deal. If the pH of juice is going to be the next source of angst for the health conscious vaper, let's just hang it up now, alright?

There has been no hint of any such concern on the part of the FDA, so I really doubt the leak is credible, at least that part of it.

As far as the 'health concious vaper' category, I fall squarely into the group of obsessive worriers, rather than the health concious. I have a lot of trouble with how much I should let my worries for myself extend to worrying about other people.

With using the Juul, I did worry about the effect on both the metals and the plastic relative to freebase nic. The color on the metal contact tabs scrapes off very easily.

I think I'm evolving on the issue of diketones, and am not gonna concern myself with whether or not they get banned from vaping. I feel reassured that I'm not being overly cautious with my avoiding diketones, judging how I am far from alone in not wanting to vape them, although I still have some concerns that banning them might keep some people smoking who'd otherwise be vaping.

 

[nicnik]

Can't we just vote for someone that will look out for our pH concerns? Or get a bunch of signatures to change their mind on this? One of those has to work.

IMO, the lower PH juice in the Juul sucks . Maybe it helps people who are new to replacing smoking, but I doubt it's gonna be of much use other than that. Higher PH seems way supreior to me.

I also tried a disposable Njoy "Daily", which adds lactic acid. That one didn't seem any different than plain ol' freebase nic. The Juul juice behaves very differently, for me.

 

[Ca Ike]

Ok. I understand why this may sound strange to you. They may not have officially released this information yet, but think about it. E-liquid will be used in a wide variety of devices. Citrus flavors and anything with a low Ph are essentially a form of acid. Vaporizing this low Ph solution eats away at the metals our atomizers are machined from. It will also affects the heating elements of the device (coils). So, we are then inhaling metal particles from our coils and atomizers, which definitely isn't good. Now the question is, why wouldn't the FDA want to regulate the Ph of our e-liquid? If we are to trust e-liquid companies to make a SAFE alternative, I would hope they would take this into consideration.

As far as the FDA lawyers, we used them recently to analyze marketing and product risk with a friends new juice company. This was covered as one of the topics being discussed within the bowels of the FDA beast.

Where is your proof? No metals have been found in any of the testing beyond trace amounts.

 

[nicnik]

Where is your proof? No metals have been found in any of the testing beyond trace amounts.

Which is very reassuring for vaping freebase nic.

If the FDA wants to stop allowing things like canned acidic foods and metal cooking utensils, it might make some sense to concern themselves with the issue for vaping. Otherwise, I don't trust the bias in their selectivity.

 

[v3nom151]

Where is your proof? No metals have been found in any of the testing beyond trace amounts.

As far as analytical testing goes, are they testing the liquid in a vaporized form out of an atomizer? Or just measuring the compounds in the liquid itself? I believe that most laboratories simply measures the 3 diketone compounds that are found in some e-liquid.

In a restaurant environment, NSF certified tables and instruments are made of at least 316 stainless steel. This type of stainless resists corrosion from various acidic foods quite well. The corrosion resistance is whats key, and why it is chosen for commercial use. The same goes for selecting a corrosion resistant material to machine an atomizer from.

I can't tell you what metal clone atomizers are made of, but if its not top quality, I personally wouldn't vape out of it. Ph balance of liquid and the type of materials that are used in atomizers are both important regardless of who's trying to regulate it. They may use this information when selecting what devices can and cannot be used once these regulations are introduced.

 

[Katya]

This comes directly from FDA lawyers. Those who represent the FDA and the laboratories that help determine what should and should not be in e-liquid. They are going to favor a higher Ph balance to help reduce the deterioration of the attys and wire we use.

Well, I, for one, am very happy that the FDA is concerned about the deterioration of my atties!

 

[skoony]

Ok. I understand why this may sound strange to you. They may not have officially released this information yet, but think about it. E-liquid will be used in a wide variety of devices. Citrus flavors and anything with a low Ph are essentially a form of acid. Vaporizing this low Ph solution eats away at the metals our atomizers are machined from. It will also affects the heating elements of the device (coils). So, we are then inhaling metal particles from our coils and atomizers, which definitely isn't good. Now the question is, why wouldn't the FDA want to regulate the Ph of our e-liquid? If we are to trust e-liquid companies to make a SAFE alternative, I would hope they would take this into consideration.

As far as the FDA lawyers, we used them recently to analyze marketing and product risk with a friends new juice company. This was covered as one of the topics being discussed within the bowels of the FDA beast.

There's a study out there entitled :"Bringing attention to e-cigarette pH as an important element for research and regulation", Irina Stepanov1,; Naomi Fujioka2; but you have to pay for access. Of course the pH was factor in nic absorption - probably something the FDA could regulate :- )

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Just my own personal view, but I treat any unconfirmed leaks as a theory.

Is there any evidence that lower pH e-liquid actually deteriorates the metal in our atomizers/coils to a perceptible degree? I've never heard anything about this.

Can't we just vote for someone that will look out for our pH concerns? Or get a bunch of signatures to change their mind on this? One of those has to work.

I will take these comments and give one response. If there was any potential harm concerning heating coils
those of us that live in the Northern half of the United States should be dropping like flies.
Your basic portable electronic space heater is a giant heating coil made out of similar or exactly
the same materials as the coils we use in e-cigs. There is no related heath issues that I am aware of
by using space heaters regarding the absorption of any metals. In the winter these are run 24/7
depending on the requirements needed.
In other words, explain to me why I have to have an advanced science degree to understand
this BS.

Regards
Mike