VG Pipe Tobacco Essense

[Kurt]

You want enlightened? Sorry to disappoint you but we are all just tired, bitter, reactionary old hacks here. Well I am anyway.

It would be very interesting to titrate TE for nic strength, but I'm given to understand that the colour change signal is blue to yellow. As the liquid is likely to be dark yellow even when extremely diluted, this might be problematic?

I'm looking for a 2nd-hand Soxhlet extractor I think, any ideas?

Titration with an indicator like bromophenol blue would be a bit challenging with the color of the TE, yes, and given that we are talking about several mg of nic at the most, it might be hard. A pH meter would probably be a better call, with a dilute titrant to not overshoot the equivalence point, and to see a clear titration curve and get inflection points. That would also be the way to ID that it was nic you were titrating, and not some oxide, although I do not know pKb's of the oxides or other alkaloids.

What did you have in mind for the Soxhlet? A Claissen head tilted can be used for one, at lower cost, but I'm wondering what you are thinking...if this wasn't a joke.

I do think longer heating or adding alcohol is going to give too much plant materials.

BTW, my TE is still stable after several weeks of warm NE US weather. Seems the VG is either good at keeping things from growing, or the method gets only flavors and nothing that mold/bacteria like. My only complaint is that it consistently bogs down attys at the flavor levels I like...but mine is super tasty with a caramel high-nic juice.

 

[rolygate]

Well, if a Soxhlet extractor or similar was available at a reasonable cost, I might be interested. So might many others, depending on various political outcomes. If I can't buy TA, or if eliquids are not available at all, then one might come in handy. Just a thought.

VG seems to be an excellent solvent, perhaps alcohol is not needed. TA is produced by using hexane or benzene as the solvent then evaporating them, I believe. However I'd be happier with VG / alcohol, even if it was less efficient.

Somehow, they remove the nicotine from TA before it's sold, as it needs to just be a flavoring. Not sure how that would be done.

VG is a bactericide, like PG, so it will naturally kill bacteria till the end of it's storage life no doubt, which perhaps might be when it has absorbed sufficient water from the atmosphere that waterborne bacteria eventually oveload its capacity to kill them off. My TE has alcohol in, so along with the VG is probably very stable in a cool environment.

I learnt the other day that one of the many chemical names for PG is propane 1,2, diol; and for VG, propane 1,2,3 triol. Sounds as if there is little fundamental difference, just a few atoms of H, O and C here and there.

[edit]
VG is bacteriostatic not bactericidal

 

[DVap]

I learnt the other day that one of the many chemical names for PG is propane 1,2, diol; and for VG, propane 1,2,3 triol. Sounds as if there is little fundamental difference, just a few atoms of H, O and C here and there.

The little fundamental difference can have a huge impact on the practical consequences.

Propylene glycol aka 1,2-propanediol is metabolized to pyruvic acid, a molecule that the body is equipped to metabolize for energy.

glycerin aka glycerol aka 1,2,3-propanetriol is produced along with fatty acids when fat is metabolized.

ethylene glycol aka 1,2 ethanediol is converted to oxalic acid which is then concentrated in the kidneys resulting in oxalic acid crystals which destroy kidney function.

A carbon here, a hydrogen there... can make a huge difference!

 

[rolygate]

Well, I figured as much.

A few C or O or H, here or there, and you get a human or a lump of coal.

But it's nice to see the precise effects.

 

[Kurt]

I also suspect that a PG TE would be different than a VG TE, since PG is a bit more ethanol-like than VG. This might result in a PG TE having more plant materials than a VG TE, such as chlorophyls, which are easily extracted with ethanol, and would be rather unwelcome in a liquid designed to be a flavor.

If I could solve the atty-clogging properties of my TE, it would be my goto flavor. Currently I only use 510 attys. I filtered it by pressing it through cotton in a syringe, but perhaps there are polysaccarides coming through, and the problem is not so much particulate. I have found this also occurs with other tobacco juices I've vaped, such as the luscious Vermont Vapor Maple. I end up dedicating an atty for tobacco, and while the resistance does not change much, it ends up with that permanent warping of the atty seat that physically blocks the air holes...at least that's what it seems like is happening. Vape is fine, just sluggish, which leads to disfavor and breaking out a new one.

I have decided to finally explore the carto world, and have some orders on the way. Maybe this would be a better way to enjoy this delightful TE, and save the precious attys for other flavors.

Anyone else have this problem with VG TE-flavored juices and attys?

 

[rolygate]

Kurt, I haven't had the plugged-up atty issue but on the other hand have less time with this stuff than you.

Also I only use LR attys or 5 volts, and maybe this burns it up better. In addition you probably use TE at far higher strength than me, it's maybe only 10% of my mixes, except for one mix I make with about 40%. But that's used at 5 volts, and my TE has a lot of alcohol (rum) in it. You can actually taste the rum as you vape it (mm, rum tobacco, nice). Maybe that again helps to heat the atty and burn stuff off. I hear you can burn out an atty with too much alcohol, so it's probably hotter. This also helps my all-VG mixes.

 

[Bahnzo]

What about using a coffee filter instead of a cotton ball in a syringe?

 

[lexi60]

the 4 times i've done this, from pan through coffe filter into beaker, from beaker into cotton balled syringe. I use cartos at 5 volts with this.

while im getting some good flavor now, I still cant get that strong tobacco taste.

I use PG, I couldnt get any real flavor from VG, Maybe its the VG im useing.

Thanks Kurt for this write up!

 

[rolygate]

I'd like to use coffee filter paper but you can't buy it here, that method of filtering has gone out of fashion here now and you can only buy the various types of cafetiere etc with a fine mesh.

Instead I do a 2-stage filter - first through a very fine tea strainer with nylon mesh of about 0.5mm or less, no plant material passes through that; then through just one ply of tissue paper. This is extremely fine and only one drip passes per 3 or 4 seconds. The result is a very dark liquid, that when diluted shows no particulates at all.

The flavor is good but not what I'd call 'strong tobacco'. Mind you I've only done this once, and using VG only. I made so much by mistake that it will last a long time before I have another go. I've no idea how you'd get a real tobacco 'whiff', especially cigar-like or similar, via this method. I would think that commercial ecig tobacco flavors use synthetic flavorings to do that, which I'd prefer to avoid where possible. It works well enough if you add a little 'dark' flavor like caramel.

Of course that probably has synthetics in but it seems hard to avoid them. There don't seem to be a lot of successful natural flavors. The best one I've come across is pure peppermint oil, it works extremely well and is my main vape now (peppermint + a tiny bit of menthol + a little TE, in Ecopure VG).

I know that oils are supposed to clog attys but I haven't found that, I've used this for months. However I only use 5 volts or LR, maybe that burns off the problem materials. There is also a tiny bit of alcohol in my mixes, as pure VG is probably not ideal.

 

[Bahnzo]

Wow......

I just made a 30ml batch yesterday. Followed Kurt's basic example with about 50ml of VG I bought at the pharmacy with 2 tablespoons of Half & Half (Burnley and Bright). Heated it, but not to boiling, just hot enough to let the VG thin. Put in the tobacco and took it off the heat and let it sit for about 8 hours covered.

Heated it back up and strained it thru a coffee filter. Rendered more than 30ml (I had to toss some, only had one 30ml bottle). I only have VG at the moment until my DIY supplies come in, so I mixed it with VG/PGA(20%) and 10% flavor. Let it sit overnight and just tried some.....talk about flavor! I mean it tastes like a pipe!

The coffee filter seemed to do a very good job, I don't see any particles at all in the juice. The only thing that was a pain is that I didn't have anything to support the filter to let it drip out, so I had to hold it myself and let it run into a pyrex dish.

This really opens up all kinds of potentially interesting stuff. First, I have to try it with PG and see if it brings the same result. But what I'm really curious about is this: I wonder if it's possible to cook down the juice into something like a thinner TA? Just simmer the filtered juice on low for a period of time to allow the VG to evaporate and then add it to PGA. I wonder if that would help with making it more friendly to our atty's?

 

[Kurt]

Hey Bahnzo,

Glad it worked for you! The cotton filter in the syringe was simply a convenience thing, and a way to avoid too much mess. The coffee filter might be better to get rid of particulates. Cheese cloth might be another good way...simply wring it out. The TE when done right really does have wonderful flavor to me. Mine is not cloudy however, no obvious particulates, so my clogging might not even have to do with particulates. It might be I'm getting sugars out of the tobacco, which would not surprise me. Haven't done the HV thing yet, which might help. But mine is very nice in a cartomizer at 3.7V.

PG TE should be interesting. I'm not going to do it myself, as I cannot do PG. I know Roly is in the same camp. Even flavorings that use PG are a problem if I go more than 10% flavoring. I suspect, however, that PG is going to get more plant materials out than VG. It is somewhat less polar than VG, and a bit more ethanol-like, and ethanol will extract chlorophyls, which you do not want in the TE. At least not in attys. I'm doing the carto thing now, and they are much cheaper to experiment with...and depending on the PV, I am finding they actually vape better than attys. Fine with me. Allows me to enjoy vaping and save those precious attys.

As for the concentrating the TE into a TA, it might work, but realize that the reason TE tastes so good in the vape is because the flavor vaporizes along with the VG, so it might just all vaporize under heat. Or else you might lose the more pleasant flavors in evaporation. VG is very good at boiling otherwise high boiling point compounds. Just sort of lifts them out when it boils on the coil.

Keep us posted. The nice thing about TE is it is relatively cheap to make. Enjoy yours!!

 

[Bahnzo]

I'll definitely keep posted with anything else I try. I'm for sure going to attempt to concentrate the juice to a TA and see how that goes. I vape with a LR atty, so it might not matter so much.

One great thing, is there are SO MANY pipe tobaccos out there, all with unique flavors I'm sure. I just bought the cheapest thing available at Smoker Friendly...can't imagine what might be available at a real tobacco shop. But for that matter, I wouldn't know where to start since I was never a pipe smoker.

 

[Bahnzo]

Update.....

I mixed up a 5ml batch at 18mg strength last nite. This stuff is still great, if anything, it's mellowed a bit over the last few days I've let it rest and it's very good. Maybe if anything, it needs a touch of sweetener, so I added a few drops and I'll let it rest a day and see if that does anything. Still, this is a great way to get some tobacco flavor for dirt cheap.

 

[providencewouldhaveit]

I was looking at different types of tobacco and the amount of nicotine. Nicotiana Rustica seems to have the highest nicotine at as much as 9%. Virginia tobacco about 7% and regular nicotiana tabacum around 3%.

 

[Kurt]

I think the bottom line is that nic when in the plant cell matrix is not soluble enough in PG or VG to get any out in the making of TE. And there is not a lot there in the first place, especially since one would not tend to vape TE straight.

I did solve the atty-clogging issue. Simple. I use a carto now. I find this is the absolute best way to enjoy this stuff as thick as you want. No clogging worries around precious attys!

I don't use PG, so I will not be attempting a PG TE, but it will not get nearly as hot as VG before it boils. And remember that a liquid will only get as hot as its boiling point, and PG is about 100C lower than VG.

Scuba, how did you find it? To me you are the guru of tobacco flavors, so your opinion will be most welcome!

 

[sjohnson]

I have about 3/4 gallon of PG left, so I tried PG extraction. Boiled and steeped per this thread's instructions, and the TE has a nauseating musty flavor. I'm going to buy an additional quantity of glycerine to compare, but PG extraction was nasty!

As an aside, with insane South Dakota State law regarding tobacco, loose cigarette tobacco is taxed at the same rate as tailor-made cigarettes. The local tobacco shop sells 12 ounce minimum bags, but with the tax that's close to $60 since the PTB consider that 12 ounces the equivalent of about a carton of cigarettes. 16 ounces of pipe tobacco, OTOH, sells for $14. If glycerine extraction creates flavorful extract, I'll also try a few cigars.

 

[Kurt]

I have about 3/4 gallon of PG left, so I tried PG extraction. Boiled and steeped per this thread's instructions, and the TE has a nauseating musty flavor. I'm going to buy an additional quantity of glycerine to compare, but PG extraction was nasty!

As an aside, with insane South Dakota State law regarding tobacco, loose cigarette tobacco is taxed at the same rate as tailor-made cigarettes. The local tobacco shop sells 12 ounce minimum bags, but with the tax that's close to $60 since the PTB consider that 12 ounces the equivalent of about a carton of cigarettes. 16 ounces of pipe tobacco, OTOH, sells for $14. If glycerine extraction creates flavorful extract, I'll also try a few cigars.

Hey sj,

I am not surprised about the results of the PG TE. I think you are getting too much plant material, which is what would in general add to the nauseating nature of it. VG is harder to work with than PG, but I think will be much more selective in just getting the flavors, since it is less nonpolar...ethanol would be even worse than PG. VG is still getting some plant materials, though, I think, as it has only about a 3 month room temp shelf life. After that it gets a bit nasty in taste.

I find PTE flavor marries very well with caramel or black walnut. In fact, when others taste the one I make with about 5% black walnut, they claim its the best, truest tobacco juice they have ever had. It is delightful.

good luck, and keep us posted.

 

[Jimbo52]

...so I tried PG extraction. Boiled and steeped per this thread's instructions, and the TE has a nauseating musty flavor.

I read somewhere here on the forum that overheating the PG will start a chemical breakdown which will produce the poor flavor you experienced. I've been using room temperature PG, just 'steeping' it longer.

 

[WillyB]

Well FWIW if you've ever smelled pure Virginia (or flue-cured) tobacco it smells like hay.

The various tobacco blends used for pipes and the fine aroma come from 'casings'.

... flavouring products and enhancers such as cocoa solids, licorice, tobacco extracts, and various sugars, which are known collectively as "casings".

These are probably what's causing any atty problems.

 

[DrmChld]

I ma just curious if anyone has tried this method using a crock pot on low heat over night?