I have nothing against subohming, but with most of the country trying to regulate or ban ecigarettes do we need it? The headline usually reads "Ecigarette explods, teen injured". It don't say "Man wanted to test his battery to see how long it would last with a .19Ω build". Most of us use the product as a safer alternative than tobacco, not to see large clouds, to test batteries or what ever you are trying to do. You have the right to sub-ohm, I just think you should be required to have a waiver in your pocket saying "you were warned this could happen".
Why is ECF full of so many people against subohming?
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I haven't read the whole thread but in reality most of the "sub ohm" builds I see are just like the OP's being that they are multicoils. Its late so forgive me if my math is off, but to get a 4 coil set up to .11 ohms you will need 4 .88 ohm coils. Now I work with electrical systems and use very expensive, highly acurrate meters to read resistances below 1 ohm and these have an error margin of .02-.04 ohm. I'm talking scopes that run into the $10k+ range here and only measure resistance. Your average sub $1k multimeters have an average error margin of .2 to .5 ohm. Even if your on the low end of the margin your out of safe range for your batts and that where my concern lies with sub ohming. Most people don't bother to pay attention to the error margins of the devices they use and in the case of sub ohming, that lack of knowledge can be deadly.
Personally I haven't found the need to sub ohm to get big clouds. My protanks and kayfuns with 2.2 ohm, 2mm ID, cotton wicked coil builds can make nice big clouds with a relaxing 4 + sec drag and rival sub ohm builds doing 1-2 sec drags. For a bigger cloud I build 4mm ID 2.2 ohm coils and run them around 15 watts. A 4mm cotton wick throws a LOT of juice at a coil which is why the need for high wattage to keep the coil hot and thats MY key to big clouds. The closest I get to sub ohmin now is running dual 1.8 ohm coils on a kayfun.
Personally I haven't found the need to sub ohm to get big clouds. My protanks and kayfuns with 2.2 ohm, 2mm ID, cotton wicked coil builds can make nice big clouds with a relaxing 4 + sec drag and rival sub ohm builds doing 1-2 sec drags. For a bigger cloud I build 4mm ID 2.2 ohm coils and run them around 15 watts. A 4mm cotton wick throws a LOT of juice at a coil which is why the need for high wattage to keep the coil hot and thats MY key to big clouds. The closest I get to sub ohmin now is running dual 1.8 ohm coils on a kayfun.
I agree with that. But beyond someone plugging in their little ecig with wrong charger we have a whole new group testing the limits of bigger batteries. If you don't respect and completely understand the risks something bad is going to happen. Odds say it will.
I would like to ask the question as to why sub-ohming is so popular?
As to your question, many on forum are here because they've been smoking for 25++++ years. We have finally found something that has freed us from the huge health problems of inhaling tar and goodness knows what else, and finally find something that has successfully helped us quit. E-cigarettes are under major attack by the United Corporations of America and Europe, helped by their criminal buddies in politics. It may well be that we see the inherent dangers of battery explosion being only a matter of time. When that happens, it will push us back years because the spiders in their corporate web are just waiting...waiting...and they'll flood media with all the ANTZ rubbish and telling uneducated people what to think based on one or two irresponsible and body maiming incidents. Not everyone understands ohms, nor how to measure them correctly. The price of being "cool" and "blowing clouds" may well end up be the banning e-cigarettes and nicotine product. If we return to smoking because of that ban, that equals millions more lives being destroyed again.
So why do you sub-ohm?
As to your question, many on forum are here because they've been smoking for 25++++ years. We have finally found something that has freed us from the huge health problems of inhaling tar and goodness knows what else, and finally find something that has successfully helped us quit. E-cigarettes are under major attack by the United Corporations of America and Europe, helped by their criminal buddies in politics. It may well be that we see the inherent dangers of battery explosion being only a matter of time. When that happens, it will push us back years because the spiders in their corporate web are just waiting...waiting...and they'll flood media with all the ANTZ rubbish and telling uneducated people what to think based on one or two irresponsible and body maiming incidents. Not everyone understands ohms, nor how to measure them correctly. The price of being "cool" and "blowing clouds" may well end up be the banning e-cigarettes and nicotine product. If we return to smoking because of that ban, that equals millions more lives being destroyed again.
So why do you sub-ohm?
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This is not like racing. Build a car anyway you want and take it to a legal track or drag strip. If you kill or maim yourself it will probably not make the news and will never make racing illegal. Make sense?
That's the kind of stuff that ends up on the news when someone blows himself up.
Too scary for me and good luck to you
Too scary for me and good luck to you
i have contacted over a couple of months a few e-cig manufacturers (some of which i consider very responsible) and they are totally against this because of safety reasons.
now i'm not a tech guy and would love to try a sub-ohm setup, but personally, if a company that has a factory that produces a product says its a no go, i will have to take his warnings seriously.
again, i am not basing this on my knowledge, just on what manufacturers claim.
now i'm not a tech guy and would love to try a sub-ohm setup, but personally, if a company that has a factory that produces a product says its a no go, i will have to take his warnings seriously.
again, i am not basing this on my knowledge, just on what manufacturers claim.
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I had written to smoktech, joyetech & innokin which to me are the oldest and biggest manufacturers. They have many years experience and have huge production lines and have built and sold millions of e-cigarettes worldwide as opposed to 1 man show companies which have sold to a handful of people.
I am a lazy guy and prefer to get my setup off the shelf so to speak, I contacted them asking if they would release anything with sub ohm and they all pretty much said that's too dangerous and would never move to produce something like that as they don't want to be responsible for any accidents... thats enough for me to be put off them.
Good post. I have never personally successfully run dual coils in a kayfun lite.
My biggest gripe with discussion of subΩ vaping and safety is that it detracts from the discussion of the true dangers of operating and, perhaps, overtaxing a Lithium Ion battery.
As to vaping seriously low resistance coils (like, under .5Ω), the only real danger lies in the inaccuracy of metering. I've had "exact same" $50 Digital Multimeters read 0.1Ω different from each other. So, running a .2Ω coil that may actually be a .1Ω coil gets a bit tight. [EDIT: this statement assumes one DOES have a reliable understanding of their particular batteries specifications, and the veracity of the battery vendor's claims.]
As to hard shorts, they usually don't happen at the coil*. So, one could have a hard short while vaping a 4Ω coil and have the same disastrous results as shorting out on a 0.4Ω coil. The only case in which the severity of a "hard short" could be related to the resistance of the build is one where the coil breaks and lands on the deck, or is touching the atomizer body/deck to begin with. Technically, this isn't a hard short, because there is still some resistance in the circuit. However, 1/5 of a 0.1Ω coil is a lot closer to a hard short than 1/5 of a 2Ω coil.
Electronic, VV/VW, devices usually have protection and don't fire when there's a breach. I think, the real issue is when one chooses to vape with a mechanical mod versus a device with protection circuitry. Hard shorts occur in the 510 connection, in the condition of the battery jacket, in the switch, or perhaps when the coil is touching the deck or cap of the atomizer. In most cases, it doesn't matter what the resistance of the build is . . . ... the result is the same . . . .
What's the result?
That depends on the quality and design of your battery. THIS is where one might find the difference between a hot situation and an explosion. This is the first topic to research when delving into the realm of mechanical vaping. (notice, I didn't say subΩ) What is your power source going to do when things go south?
Another place to be mindful is the specifications of your battery. Nobody . . . . .. . nobody . . . who is selling batteries . . . .. . . nobody . . .. is paying for the kind of science where you can follow their specifications to the Nth degree (milk it to the last drop) and be ding-dang sure that all is good. When you start mingling "seconds" with hundredths of an ohm . . . . . . .. well . . . .. . c'mon . .. . . . really?
*the idea of metering one's coil on a little black-box ohmmeter, and then screwing it on to the mod and firing away with abandon (when maybe 1/2 the hard shorts occur in the 510 connection) . . . . .. amuses me.
As to vaping seriously low resistance coils (like, under .5Ω), the only real danger lies in the inaccuracy of metering. I've had "exact same" $50 Digital Multimeters read 0.1Ω different from each other. So, running a .2Ω coil that may actually be a .1Ω coil gets a bit tight. [EDIT: this statement assumes one DOES have a reliable understanding of their particular batteries specifications, and the veracity of the battery vendor's claims.]
As to hard shorts, they usually don't happen at the coil*. So, one could have a hard short while vaping a 4Ω coil and have the same disastrous results as shorting out on a 0.4Ω coil. The only case in which the severity of a "hard short" could be related to the resistance of the build is one where the coil breaks and lands on the deck, or is touching the atomizer body/deck to begin with. Technically, this isn't a hard short, because there is still some resistance in the circuit. However, 1/5 of a 0.1Ω coil is a lot closer to a hard short than 1/5 of a 2Ω coil.
Electronic, VV/VW, devices usually have protection and don't fire when there's a breach. I think, the real issue is when one chooses to vape with a mechanical mod versus a device with protection circuitry. Hard shorts occur in the 510 connection, in the condition of the battery jacket, in the switch, or perhaps when the coil is touching the deck or cap of the atomizer. In most cases, it doesn't matter what the resistance of the build is . . . ... the result is the same . . . .
What's the result?
That depends on the quality and design of your battery. THIS is where one might find the difference between a hot situation and an explosion. This is the first topic to research when delving into the realm of mechanical vaping. (notice, I didn't say subΩ) What is your power source going to do when things go south?
Another place to be mindful is the specifications of your battery. Nobody . . . . .. . nobody . . . who is selling batteries . . . .. . . nobody . . .. is paying for the kind of science where you can follow their specifications to the Nth degree (milk it to the last drop) and be ding-dang sure that all is good. When you start mingling "seconds" with hundredths of an ohm . . . . . . .. well . . . .. . c'mon . .. . . . really?
*the idea of metering one's coil on a little black-box ohmmeter, and then screwing it on to the mod and firing away with abandon (when maybe 1/2 the hard shorts occur in the 510 connection) . . . . .. amuses me.
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And what I am seeing is people afraid of something they don't fully understand. Or something they don't have the experience to pull off.
I know what resistance my build is going to be as I finish building it. And again, we're talking 4 volts here, you'd have to have a massive short to cause any kind of battery venting or deformation.
If anyone took the time to look at the spec chart on the VTC4 batteries, they can handle my 38 amps quite well, actually. And I'm well within safe limits. I am not telling other people to try this build, I am simply demonstrating it. I will never side with people who are against it based on the sole purpose that 'well it might be dangerous and ive heard of venting and explosions so sub ohming must be dangerous'. It's not, when you know what you're doing. And I do. Call me narcissistic, I don't care. I know how to build and I can guarantee if any of you vaped on my mod right now with this build some of you would be questioning why you aren't sub ohming.
I know what resistance my build is going to be as I finish building it. And again, we're talking 4 volts here, you'd have to have a massive short to cause any kind of battery venting or deformation.
If anyone took the time to look at the spec chart on the VTC4 batteries, they can handle my 38 amps quite well, actually. And I'm well within safe limits. I am not telling other people to try this build, I am simply demonstrating it. I will never side with people who are against it based on the sole purpose that 'well it might be dangerous and ive heard of venting and explosions so sub ohming must be dangerous'. It's not, when you know what you're doing. And I do. Call me narcissistic, I don't care. I know how to build and I can guarantee if any of you vaped on my mod right now with this build some of you would be questioning why you aren't sub ohming.
Great post. When I look at the battery specs on my sony VTC4s and it shows 100amps <8 seconds you must leave a huge margin for error. But again, I'm being bashed in this thread for drawing ~38 amps.
And you make a good point about what can cause a disastrous situation, a hard short. Someone with experience can avoid them.
Who responded? The owners? Someone who actually did research and has actual experience? Was it a representative just giving a PC and safe answer to cover their tail? Is the majority always right?
About what hardware? Obviously firing a .2 coil on Ego is not a good idea.
better, my curiosity got the best of me and I just read every post you have made here.
Either you know more than any battery expert I have spoken to or read about or you have a death wish.
What next after 1.1?
I hope you have a very large supply of batteries and test them before each use. Put them in the do not use pill after a few hits.
The battery gurus I follow have been at this a long time and have more money in testing equipment that I have in my car.
Also hope you are not still stacking batteries which IMO complicates things more with not regulation.
Personally, I see no benefit with any liquid I have tasted over the years at that power.
Either you know more than any battery expert I have spoken to or read about or you have a death wish.
What next after 1.1?
I hope you have a very large supply of batteries and test them before each use. Put them in the do not use pill after a few hits.
The battery gurus I follow have been at this a long time and have more money in testing equipment that I have in my car.
Also hope you are not still stacking batteries which IMO complicates things more with not regulation.
Personally, I see no benefit with any liquid I have tasted over the years at that power.
You don't see the benefit because you haven't tried it. And thats all Im' going to say. You could, on the other hand, ask what the vape is like, and what the benefits are of a ~.11ohm setup. I think I actually already answered that for you, and if you don't see the advantage, I don't understand why you are vaping to begin with.
Are you saying that batteries do not deteriorate? You keep talking about sony 4s. Are those your primary batteries? I would think that you would have move up to much better batteries if you are chasing the fire.
How do you know what knowledge I have? This is part of the problem I have with your comments in this post. You started it by saying you got thrashed in other places and you are coming here for acceptance. See a pattern here?
Get some 50 amp batteries and quit bragging.
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i wasn't talking about ego, please don't think they don't know their stuff, if they have engineers that design their products as well as factories with huge production lines (take special note on the word FACTORY) not anyone can just have a factory, so yes, i really don't care who answered me, i got a answer from a company & that's all i need.
I will bet you that I have been at this much longer than you and tried many more setups as well. You have also never vaped my build, my liquids on my builds. I wouldn't put you down because of that because I am not a little
like you.- Status
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