Am I the only person who has a problem with ppl making juice in their homes?
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For all you know that describes every e-liquid on the market. And not just e-liquids, people could be putting all kind of stuff in your food, and you would never know it. And people do get food poisoning all the time. Nothing is 100% safe, doesn't matter if it's made by a clerk at a vape shop or by a chemist at a multi billion dollar company. You don't need a chemistry degree to mix e-liquid, by the way. That is way, way overkill. It's about as complicated as baking a cake or mixing a drink. You need to be able to measure liquids, do some math and take notes. There's no reason why you would need a chemist or pharmacist to do it.
Anyways, there are tons of toxic chemicals in cigarettes. The FDA has not tried to ban the sale of cigarettes, or told BT to stop adding toxic ingredients, have they? So what makes you think they would make vaping any safer? As far as the government is concerned, vaping and smoking are the same thing, and they are currently trying to make regulations that say exactly that. So why do you think they would treat them differently?
Okay then. There's the rub. I have never been shy about saying I like vendors with high-standards and wasn't too keen on buying liquid from just anywhere (though I don't ultimately care), but the more I looked into the truth behind the politics of all of this and what was actually being proposed, the more I realized how insidious the regulations would be. And just like Dr.Farsalinos said, "If the FDA regulations become law, e-cigarettes will disappear." But, I would amend that statement to be, if FDA regulations become law, the only things left would be tobacco company ecigs. And like it or not, we aren't here talking about our own regulations, we are talking about government regulations.
I would like to give my condolences to the poster who lost a dear friend to the drug Chantix, I think it was glossed over fast and those if us that have a heart could at least acknowledge the loss suffered.
I'm sure many of us have also lost loved ones to tobacco, alcohol, prescriptions, accidents, and many other things. The thing I'd like to point out about Chantix or any other FDA approved prescription drug is that it was prescribed by a physician, has approval for its intended use, and has been used by many with no harm to them ( I am not advocating the use of any name brand drug here that is for you and your physician to decide) I hope. But as tragic as any case my be when someone suffers prescription drug side effects it must be kept in mind that these drugs are controlled, are prescribed, are not sold or made by just anyone and most importantly come with written warnings and often warning given or at the very least should be given by the prescribing physician.
Often side effects are mild however some are serious and even life threatening. With that in mind we need to remember the person taking this medication is not forced to do so and is taking this drug willingly and receiving a bold faced document enclosed with the drug every time its dispensed. This document and others easily found in a web search will indicate mild and severe possible side effects including but not limited to death. Those are serious warnings to consider. When a drug company tells you this drug may give you thoughts of suicide people need to take that seriously and consider if the desired effect outweighs risk. Also of great importance to note is these drugs are tested over and over and over. Before ever reaching a consumer for sale.
Now back to the topic. E liquid is under no obligation to test anything, sure they can't call it a smoking cessation device but we all know its marketed as such and to say its not is naive. Heck most here tout it as saving them from smoking and speak as if there's no other choice for them but to vape which is of course nonsense. But to allow anyone to bottle nicotine (a known poison) add flavoring, pg, vg, and anything else they like with no regulation is crazy, its completely irresponsible, and just asking for trouble. To argue otherwise is nonsensical.
Sure no one is making you vape but no one is warning you that the substance you find on a store shelf meant for human consumption isn't regarded as safe because by the way Mr. or Mrs. consumer there's no laws governing it even though most consumers would assume such a product is being monitored because of its very nature, human consumption. Think about it.
I'm sure many of us have also lost loved ones to tobacco, alcohol, prescriptions, accidents, and many other things. The thing I'd like to point out about Chantix or any other FDA approved prescription drug is that it was prescribed by a physician, has approval for its intended use, and has been used by many with no harm to them ( I am not advocating the use of any name brand drug here that is for you and your physician to decide) I hope. But as tragic as any case my be when someone suffers prescription drug side effects it must be kept in mind that these drugs are controlled, are prescribed, are not sold or made by just anyone and most importantly come with written warnings and often warning given or at the very least should be given by the prescribing physician.
Often side effects are mild however some are serious and even life threatening. With that in mind we need to remember the person taking this medication is not forced to do so and is taking this drug willingly and receiving a bold faced document enclosed with the drug every time its dispensed. This document and others easily found in a web search will indicate mild and severe possible side effects including but not limited to death. Those are serious warnings to consider. When a drug company tells you this drug may give you thoughts of suicide people need to take that seriously and consider if the desired effect outweighs risk. Also of great importance to note is these drugs are tested over and over and over. Before ever reaching a consumer for sale.
Now back to the topic. E liquid is under no obligation to test anything, sure they can't call it a smoking cessation device but we all know its marketed as such and to say its not is naive. Heck most here tout it as saving them from smoking and speak as if there's no other choice for them but to vape which is of course nonsense. But to allow anyone to bottle nicotine (a known poison) add flavoring, pg, vg, and anything else they like with no regulation is crazy, its completely irresponsible, and just asking for trouble. To argue otherwise is nonsensical.
Sure no one is making you vape but no one is warning you that the substance you find on a store shelf meant for human consumption isn't regarded as safe because by the way Mr. or Mrs. consumer there's no laws governing it even though most consumers would assume such a product is being monitored because of its very nature, human consumption. Think about it.
I know talk of regulations is very big on these forums, but at the end of the day, I just don't see it as even being in the top 100 issues the federal government, its agencies or administration are looking at. Heavy regulations require a lot of funding for enforcement, which I don't see the FDA getting for e-cigarettes. Other than warning labels, child safety caps, testing for dangerous ingredients, age restrictions and advertising, I just don't see much happening on the federal level. States on the other hand...
Though I'd like to continue to be Peter Pan, living in Neverland singing "I Won't Grow Up", I'm a realist and have read the FDA proposed regs (cowritten by BT & BP), as well as the Family Smoking Prevention and Tobacco Control Act.
Reality is that "vaping as we vape now" will not continue.whether we like it or not.
It's a mere fluke that we do
The way we vape now is the direct result of giant loophole created by the Judicial Branch of the US Government when the FDA first went after ecigs NOT because of it being a tobacco product (which they didn't have oversight at the time) but because they said it was a "Medical" device (which they do).
They lost.
And the floodgates opened to all the stuff we enjoy with vaping right now.
The FDA now has tobacco related product oversight--congressionally mandated (i.e it's the law of the land)
This is an altogether new state of affairs for tobacco--only since 2009.
They WILL apply the same methodology for regulating ecigs (no matter those specifics finally turn out to be) as they have for decades with pharmaceutical and medical products. This is a process I'm fairly familiar with as my wife worked over a decade for Pfizer in new Pharmaceutical Product Development.
Put it this way, Pfizer had a entire department whose only job was FDA COMPLIANCE. Not approval, just compliance with all the required documentation to SUBMIT for FDA approval. Approval was at the FDA's discretion and for many submissions never came.
The proposed approval process is all in the deeming regs we recently commented on.
As long as the FDA is involved this is what the industry is facing.
Throw into the mix that mods, toppers, coils, liquid are all collectively termed "tobacco products" and you realize that we are vaping on borrowed time.
Regs are coming unless the Tobacco Act is rescinded or amended.
The FDA stated their proposed regulations.
Proposing an alternative that is effectively "No regs" is a non-starter since the 2009 law makes that alternative illegal.
Our best chance is to meet them somewhere in the middle
My version of regs I'd like to see are very simple.
Regulate devices --using EXISTING regulations/standards for consumer electronic devices. (In short, treat it like a cell phone)
Regulate liquids--using EXISTING regulations/standards for consumer ingestibles (In short, treat it like cough medicine)
Other than that 18 yrs or older (cuz of the nicotine)
And for local BM shops making juice-- treat like a restaurant.
Finally, there are no products that we currently buy (legally) that have absolutely no regulations or governing standards or laws that oversee some or all of how that product is designed, produced, distributed, marketed or used.
Thinking somehow that a flavored nicotine delivery product that also looks like smoking is somehow going to escape this is well.......Peter Pannish.
You're forgetting banning of imports such as any kind of nicotine in liquid form, that right there would cause major problems. If you think all our nicotine is extracted here in the US think again.
And yes they can and will ban imports it's already happened once.
Man, just within the past month we have had two bills to fight here in MI. But, you did mention "States."
Great post. I don't think we will escape it, but I'll be damned if I applaud it.
Then you don't understand the FDA. They take everything they oversee VERY seriously (You seen the SNUS submittal documentation?)
The cost of getting products approved by the FDA is on the Manufacturer submitting the product--NOT the FDA.
And Tobacco Control is so big an issue of the federal government THEY GAVE IT IT"S OWN LAW.
I know ProVape doesn't import nic, so I'll just buy from them. Not sure where Halo gets theirs, but I know it isn't China, but they could easily extract their own, if they don't already...
I said enforcement. Rules and regulations are meaningless without enforcement and enforcement is very expensive...
Yes, I believe the real issue will be with states, not the federal government...
Here in Missouri ---home of the great Governor Jay Nixon (of Ferguson fame)-
He vetoed a law that would
1) make sales to minors illegal
2) exempting ecigs from tobacco laws and taxes
Our legislature OVERTURNED that veto.
So battles CAN be won!
For many of us, Vaping was the only way we were able to stop smoking. Many of us have tried all the FDA approved methods plus unconventional methods in our desperation.
Yes, it is like someone is trying to take our food away. Many of us have been watching and fighting the legislative bodies that are indeed working to protect their money source.
Not only the legislative but also those three lettered health and medical organizations. Let's add big tobacco to those on the list.
Yes, we are passionately defending our right to choose what we decide is ok for our own consumption. This about harm reduction. As this industry grows, we do find out more and more about what goes into the liquids that we vape. Keep in mind, the people that actually DO care about us, as vapers, ARE studying what is in these liquids. It is NOT the FDA that is actively conducting tests. Nor is it BT or BP. It isn't even the legislative bodies.
Before these heavy hitter vendors became big, most of them started out in homes. As they became popular and made money, that's when they were able to afford actual lab conditions.
I'm willing to bet that the diacityl issue will be handled and it will come about, not because of the FDA or any of those other aforementioned agencies, by vapers and those that actually care about us as a group.
This conversation has been lively and continues to just stay within TOS. Let's keep it that way, shall we?
Thank you.
Robino, with respect I like to respond to your post. All of us can give up smoking if we are truly committed just as others can give up other addictions if they really want to. People including myself vape because we choose to, not because we have to, vaping isn't food or air we need to live.
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