Ask your favorite suppliers to remove diacetyl from their e-liquids!

[shanagan]

Come on who do you think is testing? do you have any idea how much that would cost?

According to a recent Wall Street Journal article, Cignot has generated roughly 1.5 million in sales in a year. Puresmoker was 1.3 million. Freedomsmokeusa didn't have a dollar figure assigned to them, but mentioned yesterday that they are "huge" - if "huge" is in the 1.3 to 1.5 million a year.. I think you're starting to find your answers, right?

If you've read the entire thread, you'll find many mentions of the need for a trade organization which would help to offset the cost of testing.

We live in a time when it costs less than $400 to get dna testing for heaven's sake, what figure do you have in your mind for testing these products? In all seriousness, how much do you think it costs?

 

[GiMante]

Unbelievable. No comment.

LOL, me either!

 

[AttyPops]

Man, IDK. Thanks cozzicon for crunching the numbers (or at least 1 set of them). Thanks to others for all these posts. I have about 10ml of juice that probably contains diacetyl and I think I will toss it to be safe. I also have some 50 ml of RYx from a very trust-worthy vendor (and I think it has FA flavors) that I'm now unsure of (the juice ingredients, I mean). But, hell...50 ml of juice. Do I just thow it out on a "scare" or does it really contain any diacetyl? If Cozzicon's numbers are correct, I'd have to use it for 500 years to worry. I just don't even know if it is there, or what else is there.

I agree with the testing approach. The FDA may very well agree too. But that's probably a regulatory issue.

As a consumer, I would like to avoid diacetyl and some of the other known issues with flavoring chemicals. I was told that some companies "don't support vaping" because they claim that their products are not tested for it (how many are?). Now I see even FA says "made for FOOD flavoring use". IDK. Maybe I'll just keep looking for the "simplest" flavoring, or vape unflavored (eck!). I'm not favoring one company over another, and I don't know if some e-juice vendor's secret recipe contains flavor x, y, or z from one flavor vendor or many.

To the OP's point, I vote for avoiding diacetyl completely in the future and applaud FA for their full disclosure. I would like to order non-diacetyl FA flavors in the future to support them. I would like the juice maker's/mixers/vendors to disclose diacetyl information. For example, I have some Caramel and Bavarian Cream that I just ordered from an e-juice vendor and I don't know who makes the flavors. So now what? The vendor should disclose the diacetyl info, if not the flavor vendor. These flavors may or may not contain diacetyl.

I'm not panicking tho. I'll probably will pour out some juice.... I hope I can stick to simple flavors... if that means anything.

 

[harmony]

I just feel bad for the people that don't have juice to waste. It takes 3-4 days to recieve juice once you order it and some people cannot afford to buy new juice. There are also potential ecig converts that are probably reading this and will make the decision to remain on analogs because of the danger they see.
It is a shame this is even an issue. I don't want to hear the stuff about "ecigs not being 100% safe" because that is obvious, but you would think that something as dangerous as this component wouldn't be used by anyone.
If nothing else, it will bring to light the suppliers that care for their customers. I for one know that I will think twice about who to buy from. Suppliers should disclose what is used and allow consumers their choice. Even tobacco companies had the balls to do that. It is more hurtful IMO that a company that is utilized for a safer alternative to smoking would take the chance of causing harm to someone.
Before folks jump on me, I am certain that most suppliers aren't using anything harmful intentionally. With that being said, now is the time to set yourself apart and disclose what is being used and be honest with your customers.
A big thank you to all that have done their homework and have brought real value to this thread. I have learned a lot and although I am scared, I will be more cautious in the future.

 

[champions]

This seems like a bit of overkill to me. How many packs of cigarettes did you throw away because they "might" contain arsenic? It's not like your gonna use this thing the rest of your life. Eventually you'll cut it down to no nic and it will be lost in the junk drawer forever.

Can you imagine going to newport and telling them which ingredients you want them to remove... and them complying?

As was pointed out previously the amounts are trace. You will only use this thing for a few months possibly inhaling one chemical instead of the 4000 chemicals you would have been inhaling without it.

I have no plans to throw out any juice and I'm gonna go make some popcorn.

 

[shanagan]

This seems like a bit of overkill to me. How many packs of cigarettes did you throw away because they "might" contain arsenic? It's not like your gonna use this thing the rest of your life. Eventually you'll cut it down to no nic and it will be lost in the junk drawer forever.

Can you imagine going to newport and telling them which ingredients you want them to remove... and them complying?

As was pointed out previously the amounts are trace. You will only use this thing for a few months possibly inhaling one chemical instead of the 4000 chemicals you would have been inhaling without it.

I have no plans to throw out any juice and I'm gonna go make some popcorn.

I can only speak for myself, but as I've stated elsewhere in this thread, this has the potential - not a definite - but potential to be an immediate health concern.

Why would you try to convince someone to use diacetyl if they can afford not to?

 

[Seabrook]

According to an old ECF thread from earlier in the year, the best quality nicotines (tested/analyzed by one of the ECF chemists) and best prices are from MyFreedomSmokes and Xtremevaping. I buy 500ml of 50mg at a time from Levy (xtreme) and cut it with PG clear down to what I personally vape - 9mg, woohoo. If you were to buy 120ml of 36mg from xtremevaping, it would be only 24.95+6.05 S/H = $31 plus very good c/s and speedy (3-day)delivery - not to mention the guaranteed purity.

Also, Capellas sell their USP-grade PG and VG for only 2.50 per 120ml each, and they have free shipping right now. If you buy PG and VG, I would buy it asap while the free S/H special is on. The weight of those liquids really drives the shipping cost up. If you so choose to order from Capella's, be sure you're not in a hurry; it will most likely take 7-10 days at least. They are super swamped over there, and they have outgrown their facilities so are in the middle of relocation. Tom told me they will soon sell bottles also, as they buy their bottles in 100,000 lots from Comar (the supplier for the major plastics suppliers companies). Their PG/VG comes in tanks in semi truckloads is why their PG/VG is so inexpensive compared to other companies. They do not allow the public inside their laboratory (for sanitary reasons), as it is highly state/FDA regulated, so I can't tell you what it's like, as the admin. bldg is separate from the lab.

I don't want to interfere and tell you where to buy your supplies from. I've just learned from spending weeks on the DIY subforum where the DIY gurus buy and what they suggest for purity, reliability and affordability. Like I said, not interfering, just trying to be helpful and friendly to a member of my ECF family.

Yes, but they've got a section (Fumo elettronico :: ..Heaven Juice MIX and TAKE - Flavourart. La sartoria degli aromi) where you can do a sort of quick DIY. They are in Italy, so pricing is in Euro's to start, but if you dig around enough you'll find the spot to change it to US dollars (I found it once I was at the shopping cart).

To get, for instance, 100ml of 36mg nicotine unflavored nic juice, it'd be $46 shipped (slow, no tracking) to the US.

 

[markarich159]

@ AttyPops ; Unfortunately, "the numbers" on this matter are far from settled. Besides the fact that several different toxic inhalation ppm's are quoted in different available diacetly study data; There is no way to correctly extrapolate ppm in liquid form to ppm in the vapor/gaseous state(especially with the very limited amount of datum available for vaping in general). Variables such as differential vapor pressures at temperature for the myriad of constituents in not only the flavoring component(s) but also the rest of the vaping solution would need to be known exactly in order to approach a workable diacetyl inhalation concentration; airflow rate through the atomizer would also have to be considered; etc....(you get the point, the variables are a mathematical nightmare). The critical figure you would have to know would be the actual bronchiolar toxic diacetyl concentration which causes the histological effects seen in bronchiolitis obliterans and this is not clearly known nor is the bronchiolar concentration of diacetyl acheived through vaping suspect flavors(further studies would need to be performed to determine this exactly).

The fact that a highly suspected causual relationship exists between diacetyl inhalation and a disease of the magnitude and consequence of Brochiolitis obliterans should be enough to warrant extreme concern & to insist upon diacetyl's(and other similar pulmonotoxic agents) absence in any inhaled product.

 

[texastumbleweed]

ok i have sifted thru some of these posts, reading folks are dumping out juices. can there NOT be a CENTRAL location where you dont have to hunt and peck, to find out WHICH suppliers juices to dump out/avoid? sheesh. it aint that hard. oh and a list of suppliers who definitely dont have diacetyl?

 

[mgmrick]

This seems like a bit of overkill to me. How many packs of cigarettes did you throw away because they "might" contain arsenic? It's not like your gonna use this thing the rest of your life. Eventually you'll cut it down to no nic and it will be lost in the junk drawer forever.

Can you imagine going to newport and telling them which ingredients you want them to remove... and them complying?

As was pointed out previously the amounts are trace. You will only use this thing for a few months possibly inhaling one chemical instead of the 4000 chemicals you would have been inhaling without it.

I have no plans to throw out any juice and I'm gonna go make some popcorn.

Come on we are ex smokers of cancer sticks....Lets not scare people away with the unknown. Dont over regulate this

 

[mgmrick]

I can only speak for myself, but as I've stated elsewhere in this thread, this has the potential - not a definite - but potential to be an immediate health concern.

Why would you try to convince someone to use diacetyl if they can afford not to?

I dont smoke cancer sticks anymore...I will take my chances

 

[Redbone]

You wanna take chances with diacetyl???

Good luck buddy.

 

[texastumbleweed]

ok so far, the "safe" suppliers are:
TOTALLY WICKED
BACKWOODS BREW
VAPOR RENU
DIY

any others to add to the list? i need to know so i can start ordering!

 

[mgmrick]

You wanna take chances with diacetyl???

Good luck buddy.

And you smoked analog cigs for how long even knowing they are cancerous ?

 

[AttyPops]

@ AttyPops ; Unfortunately, "the numbers" on this matter are far from settled. Besides the fact that several different toxic inhalation ppm's are quoted in different available diacetly study data; There is no way to correctly extrapolate ppm in liquid form to ppm in the vapor/gaseous state(especially with the very limited amount of datum available for vaping in general). Variables such as differential vapor pressures at temperature for the myriad of constituents in not only the flavoring component(s) but also the rest of the vaping solution would need to be known exactly in order to approach a workable diacetyl inhalation concentration; airflow rate through the atomizer would also have to be considered; etc....(you get the point, the variables are a mathematical nightmare). The critical figure you would have to know would be the actual bronchiolar toxic diacetyl concentration which causes the histological effects seen in bronchiolitis obliterans and this is not clearly known nor is the bronchiolar concentration of diacetyl acheived through vaping suspect flavors(further studies would need to be performed to determine this exactly).

The fact that a highly suspected causual relationship exists between diacetyl inhalation and a disease of the magnitude and consequence of Brochiolitis obliterans should be enough to warrant extreme concern & to insist upon diacetyl's(and other similar pulmonotoxic agents) absence in any inhaled product.

Agreed. I wasn't asserting the that numbers were conclusive, only that I am not freaking out about it. I do support elimination of diacetyl in e-juice recipes. His math, though, did give me a rough idea of the concentrations that are being discussed. I have no idea if any concentration other than 0% is "OK".

My point was that I will err on the side of caution (where I can) and dump some juice. I will, however, sleep just fine tonight. I eliminated tobacco for harm reduction, and I will now try to eliminate inhaling diacetyl for harm reduction. The hard part, of course, is trying to figure out what I CAN vape.....

 

[JeffTM]

Guys, I think it's important for this thread to stick around. Please refrain from personal attacks. This thread is about educating and informing, not debating.

 

[mgmrick]

But suppliers are going to be bashed and there is zero proof that this chemical is dangerous. And no I am not a supplier.

 

[champions]

And you smoked analog cigs for how long even knowing they are cancerous ?

My point exactly. This isn't something you are gonna do the rest of your life.
Hell maybe not even the rest of the year! But without this you would still be smoking which is WAY worse.
It is simply a stepping stone to not having to do anything. No smoking. No vaping.

 

[mgmrick]

I think this whole post should be deleted. Just what the fda needs to see. Zero proof and users what it banned? You got to be kidding.....I knew analogs where killing me and now you are going to start attacking chemicals in ejuice with zero proof

 

[hattrick]

Just want to post this as a point of perspective: Determination of toxic carbonyl compounds in cigarette smoke - Fujioka - 2006 - Environmental Toxicology - Wiley Online Library
From page 6 of the study: "The levels of diacetyl in mainstream cigarette smoke from regular size cigarettes ranged from 307 (J) to 433 micrograms/cigarette"

I just wanted to post this to let people know that you've likely been inhaling diacetyl into your lungs with every analog you've smoke or smoked (along with thousands of other chemicals). Obviously we have all moved (or are moving) from smoking to vaping as way to cut down the crap we inhale on a daily basis. I'm in no way condoning diacetyl in juice and I personally will be doing everything I can to cut it out of future juice ordesr (the less chemicals the better). Again just wanted to post this as a point of perspective.