Status
Not open for further replies.

SimpleSins

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Jul 18, 2010
1,121
18
SW Iowa
The ones I know as being safe are Capellas and Flavourart as far as the current best practices in manufacturing. And even among those you have to educate yourself. For example, the Flavourart does have the diacetyl in some of their flavorings, but they are very transparent with that information and it's fairly simple to avoid those flavors. I just recently learned that the Decadent Vapor line is working on getting completely diacetyl free, with it only still appearing in a couple flavors.

And vendors also have a responsibility, too. We do not know what flavorings many of them use so it is up to them to make sure they are providing us safe juice. If they are using Flavourart, they obviously have to be using diacetyl whether they (the vendor) is aware of it or not, and this is where it is important that they do their homework, too, or at the very least list what flavorings they use so that we can educate ourselves.

As to whether or not there is regulation for in-home food production (which is what creating the flavors apparently falls under), a lot depends on the state. I believe California has some stringent regulations. But it's kinda sad that is what you're holding up as your benchmark for safety. We use products in a very different way than what they were originally conceived and, as the Flavourart information early posted shows, our digestive systems protect us from ourselves now and then; we don't have that with our lungs; there are no enzymes or acids to break down these chemicals or send them off to the liver to get filtered out; if we put it into our lungs, it's going right into our blood stream pretty much as is. And keep in mind also that flavoring creation is not like cooking. It isn't taking "essence of chocolate" and decanting it into a smaller bottle. Instead it's a matter of using molecules to create the flavor; speaking for myself, I like the idea that the person mixing up the chemicals I'm about to inhale has a firm grasp on chemistry when they're whipping these things up.

Yes, we presume that it's safer to vape than to smoke; the common argument is that it's 4,000+ chemicals in a cigarette versus 3-4 for the ecig. But it's the constituents of some of those 3-4 that could trip us up, and, as with diacetyl, it only takes 1 to be a bad thing. I know that vaping could not possibly be 100% safe; heck, I live in an agricultural area with livestock so I'm not even sure breathing the way when the wind is southerly is 100% safe. But most of us are vaping to try not to suffer any more damage from cigarettes; we owe it to ourselves to take some precautions to make sure that we are doing that as safely as we can.
 

GiMante

Unregistered Supplier
ECF Veteran
Jul 14, 2010
1,951
492
So Cal
www.VaperSociety.com
GiMante, it would be a pleasure to help you out as a new new DIYer. However, the best place to ask is the DIY forum. I learned everything I know from them and am still learning. Any Q you have will be answered by some really super nice ppl. DIYing is so much fun. Any flavor you want right at your fingertips. I just mixed up four mixes today: Apple Pie, Dutch Chocolate Mint, Toasted Almond and Raspberry Cheesecake -- and I am in total bliss. You'll think you died and went to Willie Wonka's, LOL. And the Capella's Chocolate Almond tastes just like an Almond Joy candy bar. I had to make other juices today to tear myself away from it -- it was either that or get therapy, LOL.

Thanks so much!:) Yes, I am going to be doing A LOT of reading for awhile!

GiMante

I'm just about to venture into the world of DIY as well. At least I'll know more about what's going into my juice. I think it's a good idea considering there's so little information about most suppliers.

I completely agree!
 

kushka

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Jul 23, 2010
777
233
Marietta, GA
I emailed Linda Andrews the owner of Perfumers Apprentice last night because a lot of suppositions were being made about her on this thread - that she makes her flavors in her uninspected home home using perfume ingredients and not food grade - and I wanted to get at the truth to that for my own peace of mind.

She wrote me a couple of nice emails - I found out you that her flavors are not manufactured by her in her home but are manufactured by a very reputable flavor company in southern california.

That she works closely with their chemists on new flavors, they send her samples, and then she chooses the ones that will go into production.

They do the manufacturing.

She told me that because of the concerns I stated she is changing her web site.

She told me the only exception to the FDA approved ingredients is natural tobacco absolute.

She emailed me that she made a new category for those blends that contain this material with the explanation that although the absolute has been used as a flavor agent in the tobacco industry for years, it is not in the strictest sense a Food Grade material and is not used in food flavorings.

She has moved those items to a different category with warnings (in bold lettering) about it.

Also she has added the following statement to her website:
***********************
Upcoming:
We will be enhancing our flavor listing over the course of the next week or two to include specification data from the manufacturer of our flavors.
We are also working on a new educational entry for our website, that will show the steps that happen for our flavors, from new request, to research, how we work with our manufacturing partner to receive test samples, then through commercial manufacturing and bottling. This should be complete by the end of next week or so, and we hope that you will find this both interesting and informative! (posted 10/11/10)

********************

She hoped these additions would help ease my questions and fears about her product. I have never met a vendor who was so open about my questions ans so responsive. I suggest if anyone else has other concerns you email her. I really appreciate that she is willing to be so open about the manufacturing process and to change her website because of my queries
 

rolygate

Vaping Master
Supporting Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Sep 24, 2009
8,354
12,402
ECF Towers
From a practical perspective, there is a long way to go before anyone can say e-liquids are 'safe'. Just in one area, suppliers of flavorings for inclusion in e-liquids would need to fully disclose:

US-based
1. Details of their FDA Food Production registration.
(Premises used for commercial food production need to be registered with the FDA).
2. Date of last FDA inspection of food production premises.
(Flavors should not be produced in premises not registered with the FDA for food production and subsequently inspected by the FDA, since otherwise there is no control or regulation in any form, of the standard of production. The direct result of this is the 'backroom bathtub' type of production by unskilled and untrained personnel we have seen associated with an e-liquid supplier popular until recently.)
3. Details of the FDA approvals for each of the ingredients.
(All food ingredients must have FDA approval otherwise they cannot be included in food.)

As there are no standards for use by inhalation except for medicines, it seems best to opt for food approvals as against pharmaceutical approvals - since the latter means in effect a total ban, at least for some years. The idea that some ingredients without any form of approval could be added to materials inhaled is not acceptable - ingredients need at least to meet food standards, although it is accepted this is not a total solution since some approved food ingredients must not be inhaled.)

UK-based
1. Details of the appropriate local authority registration.
2. Details of the most recent Trading Standards inspection and analysis of materials sold.
(In the UK you must register food businesses with your local authority, aka 'council'. TS then visit, inspect, and take away materials for laboratory analysis. TS also visit internet suppliers based in the UK.)

All countries
1. A full list of ingredients used.
2. A statement that ingredients with known issues when inhaled are not included.
3. A list of those ingredients considered harmful when inhaled and not present in the flavorings supplied.


To recap: somebody somewhere has to inspect and approve manufacturing and supply premises and materials. There is ABSOLUTELY NO GET-OUT FOR THAT - let's be clear.

The idea that someone can supply flavors or e-liquids and have nobody looking at what they are doing is 'not acceptable' in my opinion, as an ecig user - and I'd really like to phrase that much more strongly... Your opinion might be different, but personally I don't want to be inhaling diacetyl and paraffin flavor produced in a tub in someone's back room with a pet dog on the table mixed by someone's girlfriend who just arrived in the country last week while the main man is out getting drunk. You might be happy with that but I'm not. The only solution is inspection by somebody. If you know of a different solution then let's hear it.

It is also worth pointing out that since the bulk of the ingredients in e-liquid are essentially harmless / acceptably safe, the real dangers probably come from the flavorings. Therefore it's the flavorings that need the most attention.

Please note
This post constitutes my personal opinion as a consumer, it has nothing to do with ECF policy because there isn't one on this subject.
 
Last edited:

Bovinia

Divine Bovine
ECF Veteran
Jul 17, 2010
14,449
50,826
64
South Carolina
SimpleSins, I agree with you and you beat me to it so I won't go over what you said ad nausium.

Roly, you read my mind and put into words exactly my opinion! Thank you for doing so, and letting this discussion continue. I am not here to bash or insult any supplier or vendor, I simply want disclosure.

Smokie, thank you for going the extra step to pass these concerns on to suppliers and other vapers. This is exactly what we need, and have been asking for. Unfortunately we have had far to few suppliers respond openly to our questions and concerns.

I understand that juice vendors want to have their *secret* recipes, but non disclosure is only pushing a lot more of us into DIY. They lose business. For some of us, DIY is a fun hobby, for others it's a PITA. It can be dangerous handling nicotine if you don't follow proper safety, and frankly it just makes more bathtub brewers. I personally won't allow anyone else(except hubby) to vape what I mix...I don't want to be responsible for anyone's health but my own if I made a calc. error or didn't sterilize my things properly.

Kushka, at least you got a response. Did Linda give you the name of the facility she uses? If not, then IMHO she is just passing the buck. I am not saying her products are unsafe or safe, I'm not an inspector or chemist.
 

shanagan

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Jul 14, 2010
1,238
72
Texas
I'm totally on board with this no-or-disclosed diacetyl movement. Bronchiolitis obliterans is no joke, and we don't know what levels of direct inhalation might cause it (remember, those with "popcorn lung" were exposed in the manufacturing environment - we're heating the stuff up and direct inhaling) and for that matter, we have no idea how much of it we might be exhaling back into our environment. I just don't believe that "well, we'll all die anyway, and at least vaping is safer than analogs" is the answer. In fact, it's an infuriating "answer" if you ask me, one which just kind of shrugs and suggests that's what I get for my nicotine addiction.
 
Last edited:

Chalie_Champ

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Sep 13, 2010
618
1
philadelphia
NHALER was aware of this for quite some time, the email he just sent back as follows:

Hi Charles,
Thanks for the inquiry.
I have known about this for quite some time and is actaually why I dont sell any butter flavors. There are some flavor makers that claim that they have butter flavor with safer ingredients but I just decided if it was questionable that I wouldnt handle them at all. The same for the Cinamons that some companies sell. I have tested some and not felt confident enough to sel them. Thanks for the info just the same.
Drew


with a company like this i would not mind at all to pay 2 or 3 extra dollars for a caring and concerned company like nhaler. plus they always seem to throw in a free gift with every order.
 

GoodDog

Vaping Master
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Dec 31, 2009
4,160
1,008
SF East Bay
It's my understanding that food products can't even be repackaged or rebottled without meeting health and safety codes. So even if she uses a lab to develop the flavors she still uses her home to house and bottle them.

I agree with Rolygate and others that flavorings are the ingredients in eLiquid we need to be concerned about. The very least we should expect is food grade standards. If we don't demand that from vendors the FDA will only demand more.

I see vendors addressing the diacetyl but what about using non-food compliant flavoring vendors. Are they willing to tell us who they buy their flavorings from?
 
Last edited:

SimpleSins

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Jul 18, 2010
1,121
18
SW Iowa
I think it's an uphill battle. One of the vendors known to use diacetyl has just kinda shrugged and said that it's not as bad as analogs. Which is not really even an accurate statement anyway since we don't know what quantities of diacetyl will destroy your lungs.

I am particularly thankful in this thread to be able to get some guidance regarding vendors, too. There are several who I may not have considered before but on hearing their approach to safety and responsibility, I will be taking a second look. And for those that do have a cavalier attitude about the juice that they're producing; well, that's good to know too.
 

bpaulette

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Jul 27, 2010
566
159
midwest
This is all great - BUT...

If a company isn't using diacetyl, and still offering buttery flavors, what are they using instead of diacetyl?

If its 2,3-Pentanedione, you could be in for the same problems as diacetyl. I dug around a LOT on this whole issue a while back, and found a study from earlier this year, performed by NIOSH, where they found that one of the more common substitute chemicals does exactly the same thing as diacetyl.

More here: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/vapor4life/66966-flavoring-concern-10.html#post1777930

I've just decided to try to stay away from buttery flavors period because I'm paranoid. But honestly, the flavorarts list, where they actually disclose which flavors have it is a bit shocking. There sure are a lot of flavors on there that I wouldn't have originally thought would fit into that category.
 

Chalie_Champ

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Sep 13, 2010
618
1
philadelphia
This is all great - BUT...

If a company isn't using diacetyl, and still offering buttery flavors, what are they using instead of diacetyl?

If its 2,3-Pentanedione, you could be in for the same problems as diacetyl. I dug around a LOT on this whole issue a while back, and found a study from earlier this year, performed by NIOSH, where they found that one of the more common substitute chemicals does exactly the same thing as diacetyl.

More here: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/vapor4life/66966-flavoring-concern-10.html#post1777930

I've just decided to try to stay away from buttery flavors period because I'm paranoid. But honestly, the flavorarts list, where they actually disclose which flavors have it is a bit shocking. There sure are a lot of flavors on there that I wouldn't have originally thought would fit into that category.

where is the list, i want to see what ones have it
 

shanagan

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Jul 14, 2010
1,238
72
Texas
I think it's an uphill battle. One of the vendors known to use diacetyl has just kinda shrugged and said that it's not as bad as analogs. Which is not really even an accurate statement anyway since we don't know what quantities of diacetyl will destroy your lungs.

I am particularly thankful in this thread to be able to get some guidance regarding vendors, too. There are several who I may not have considered before but on hearing their approach to safety and responsibility, I will be taking a second look. And for those that do have a cavalier attitude about the juice that they're producing; well, that's good to know too.

I wholeheartedly agree.
 

kushka

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Jul 23, 2010
777
233
Marietta, GA
I'm totally on board with this no-or-disclosed diacetyl movement. Bronchiolitis obliterans is no joke, and we don't know what levels of direct inhalation might cause it (remember, those with "popcorn lung" were exposed in the manufacturing environment - we're heating the stuff up and direct inhaling) and for that matter, we have no idea how much of it we might be exhaling back into our environment. I just don't believe that "well, we'll all die anyway, and at least vaping is safer than analogs" is the answer. In fact, it's an infuriating "answer" if you ask me, one which just kind of shrugs and suggests that's what I get for my nicotine addiction.

I agree - it bothered me that the rep freedomsmoke (a supplier that i have great respect for) when askede about diacetyl came back with basically its only a little bit and a few flavors - I don't really believe that represents the owners views entirely - and it it does we need to change them. Flavorart is the only major flavoring company that we have heard from that still uses diacetyl - and it IS only a few flavors that we normally make e-juice out of and so it is just a few flavors that vendors that use flavorart flavorings need to substitute with another - I do not see that as asking too much.

Perfumers Apprentice wrote me that within a couple of weeks she will add a section to her website listing ingredients and the manufacturing process they go through. All suppliers should be willing to do this. There are many ingredients that are use in these that caused problems to the lungs. I know SimpleeSims and others were having some problems with Cinnamon flavorings - and after just reading the Wikipedia listing on cinnamon - I wonder if this wonderful flavor quite common ingredient in food should be vaped.

Which is another problem we have - we may know something is safe to eat - but we may not know if it is safe to vape.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users who are viewing this thread