Ask your favorite suppliers to remove diacetyl from their e-liquids!

[Bovinia]

No, we swear our products contain no Diacetyl. Ooops, wait a minute, the flavor supplier we use has already admitted that their flavors DO contain diacetyl. Uh, Um, uh, well we swear , uh no, scratch that, we think, that the levels are safe- yeah that sounds good. Have we done any studies or have any evidence they are safe to vape. Uh, um, uh , well no , but the levels are low(we think). Um, have I mentioned we're just a small mom & pop trying to survive and make a buck, no one told us that this was actually going to take some level of chemical/pharmacological/toxicological knowledge or responsibilty- Uh oh, did I say that out loud. Oops. Did you see our handy-dandy little legal disclaimer. What was that, do we have any product liability insurance just in case anything should happen. Um, Hey look there's Elvis!!!!

Wake up vaping consumers. For the 2nd time this week, as a healthcare professional, I'll turn your attention to this post:

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/decadentvapours/123435-diacetyl-question.html

Unless your supplier can answer questions like the diacetyl question with as much knowledge and confidence as this supplier OR provide you with a certified MSDS showing their products ingredient listing. Stay away - it's that simple. I'll leave you with this to think about.

YouTube - OSHA Hearing: Eric Peoples' testimony

Brochiolitis Obliterans is an aggressive, quickly progressive, chronic lung condition where the small airways in your lungs(bronchioles) are destroyed and replaced with non-functioning scar and inflammatory tissue. There is no cure, short of pulmonary transplant, and that is a very unpleasant and, in itself, incredibly life shortening option.

If I'm going to die of causes of pulmonary origin, I'd rather say I took my chances smoking fully knowing(and taking responsibilty for) the consequences; not thinking I was being "healthier" vaping & finding out some unregulated home brew eliquid manufacturer irresponsibly and without disclosure(& without taking the time to become educated about the product THEY were producing) quickly destroyed my lung tissue by selling me a product containing a known, aggressive pulmonary toxin - knowing I was going to use that product via direct concentrated pulmonary inhalation(that's no better then the analog cigarette companies).

P.S. This post was not intended as a knock on any manufacturer that has done their homework and taken the time to ensure a diacetyl free product(in fact, I applaud these manufacturers efforts and responsibilty) - This post was focused on the other manufacturers(and , unfortunately, only they know who they are)

Markarich, I have read many of your posts and appreciate and admire your professional information and opinions. We would love to hear from more of our members who practice in the fields of medicine and pharmacology. I would however, respectfully ask that you check the confrontational attitude at the door. It does not help us to get the information we need.

 

[banjo]

All of this is starting to sound like some sort of crusade or witch hunt...........

 

[SimpleSins]

All of this is starting to sound like some sort of crusade or witch hunt...........

I don't know why you're convinced it's a witch hunt, Banjo, because you apparently are missing a critical reference in Mark's posting. And, as confrontational or witch hunt as you may feel it is, if the facts are true, is it still a witch hunt? Do you not think it is at least a bit irresponsible to knowingly put out a product that has the potential to damage our lungs even more immediately than cigarettes did? And I will note that this is not directed at one vendor. It is directed at any and all who knowingly use ingredients known to cause harm and when asked about it downplay the significance. I think to people concerned about their well-being enough to make the switch from cigarettes to vaping, tut-tutting concerns is not confidence inspiring. A better example of how to handle it is the way it was done in Decadent Vapour's forum, where nobody was told that "eh, it's always something".

 

[Jeff Eaton]

Witch hunt? wow
well I moved this here for all to see, as we are proud of our eliquids
Thank you smokie for Posting my response to you.
Again I assure all of you Laurin Does not include in her liquids Diacetyl.
As I told Smokie I was A chef for 16 years before WordupEcig Was Founded and the health inspector would come to my kitchen Unannounced 2 to 3 times a year to make sure proper sanitary actions are being taken.
Same with Laurin being a Pharmacists the DEA would come in and close the Pharmacy and check everything to make sure all clients are getting the correct RX and to make sure again that proper sanitary procedures are being taken.
So if you are going to mix liquid you should be held to the same standards.
I am sure a lot of you will not agree with me on unannounced inspections. But if you sell, mix or pure nicotine & Flavors you/we should all be held to this standers of Unannounced inspections it is how we can assure a safe proper e-liquid for our clients weather it be 1mg or 100mg, this will also weed out the Ham & Eggers as my dad would call them "lol"
Thank you all and no hard feelings
Jeffrey & Laurin

 

[markarich159]

Thank you smokie for Posting my response to you.
Again I assure all of you Laurin Does not include in her liquids Diacetyl.
As I told Smokie Same with Laurin being a Pharmacists the DEA would come in and close the Pharmacy and check everything to make sure all clients are getting the correct RX and to make sure again that proper sanitary procedures are being taken.
Jeffrey & Laurin

If Laurin is a registered pharmacist in Massachusetts and is mixing unapproved eliquid on the side for introduction into intra-interstate commerce, I would keep that on the down low. She is putting her license in jeapordy if the State Board finds this out. Also , it's not the DEA who does yearly unannounced Pharmacy inspections(at least not in any State that I know of); it's the Pharmacy inspector from the State Board of Pharmacy(In PA & most other States the State Pharmacy Board is specialized commision under the State Bureau of Professional and Occupational Affairs). The only time, that I'm aware that the Federal DEA would become involved in any one particular Pharmacy's affairs(other then assigning a DEA registration #) would be in a MAJOR controlled substance violation of Federal scope.
Other than that I agree with the part about proper sanitary(in this case Aseptic procedures) and facility inspections.

 

[SimpleSins]

Markarich, I have read many of your posts and appreciate and admire your professional information and opinions. We would love to hear from more of our members who practice in the fields of medicine and pharmacology. I would however, respectfully ask that you check the confrontational attitude at the door. It does not help us to get the information we need.

Bovinia, I don't really see that Markarich was particularly confrontational. The consequences of diacetyl are scary and aggressive and irreversible and it seems there are some that would like to to downplay the dangers. If you stop smoking for long enough, apparently you can halt and even start reversing the damage that cigarettes have done to you with their 4000+ chemicals. But this 1 chemical, diacetyl, can quickly damage a lung in a way that will not recover, that is damaged forever, and causes a disease that can only be "cured" with a lung transplant. And people on here squawk about witch-hunts and oh it's always something.

Frankly, I don't think Mark, a licensed medical professional, was nearly aggressive enough in opening a window into this totally unnecessary hazard.

 

[smokie]

All of this is starting to sound like some sort of crusade or witch hunt...........

Absolutely NOT! a witch hunt, or crusade, just for suppliers, and vapers to know (awareness) that their might be a potential health hazard with this one particular ingredient, that's it!
It may be just in rear cases, or over many years, but since we Suck this stuff in with force, problems may arise sooner then later, no one knows for sure, and I do not want to be the test subject.

Diacetyl: His lung problems were linked to breathing the vapors

He was just breathing it in, WE ARE SUCKING IT IN OUR LUNGS, WITH FORCE

 

[shanagan]

Absolutely NOT! a witch hunt, or crusade, just for suppliers, and vapers to know (awareness) that their might be a potential health hazard with this one particular ingredient, that's it!
It may be just in rear cases, or over many years, but since we Suck this stuff in with force, problems may arise sooner then later, no one knows for sure, and I do not want to be the test subject.

Diacetyl: His lung problems were linked to breathing the vapors

He was just breathing it in, WE ARE SUCKING IT IN OUR LUNGS, WITH FORCE

My concern as well. Workers were exposed to diacetyl in their workplace environment. We heat the stuff and purposefully inhale it. I mean.. that would - and should - concern anyone. And it's completely avoidable - so why not figure out how to avoid it?

 

[markarich159]

I don't know why you're convinced it's a witch hunt, Banjo, because you apparently are missing a critical reference in Mark's posting. And, as confrontational or witch hunt as you may feel it is, if the facts are true, is it still a witch hunt? Do you not think it is at least a bit irresponsible to knowingly put out a product that has the potential to damage our lungs even more immediately than cigarettes did? And I will note that this is not directed at one vendor. It is directed at any and all who knowingly use ingredients known to cause harm and when asked about it downplay the significance. I think to people concerned about their well-being enough to make the switch from cigarettes to vaping, tut-tutting concerns is not confidence inspiring. A better example of how to handle it is the way it was done in Decadent Vapour's forum, where nobody was told that "eh, it's always something".

Thank you Simplesins and to Bovinia, I was simply trying to add a bit of wit to my post. Understand that there is no one looking out for you, as a vaper, but yourself(i.e. there is no one forcing or regulating any US vendor/supplier/manufacturer to do anything above and beyond placing a vapable liquid into a bottle and ship it). What do you think the government response will be if a percentage of vapers start showing up at their pulmonologists with "popcorn lung" diagnoses? I don't think you need to think about that for too long. This is a situation where, by necessity, it is incumbent upon the vaping consumer to know what they are vaping and be responsible(just in case their supplier may not be). If being confrontational means looking out for the general health of people, so be it, that's what I took an oath to do(sadly and unfortunately in the USA, in this as of yet unregulated industry, somebody has to). It might not be popular viewpoint, but it's the clinically correct one.

 

[markarich159]

My concern as well. Workers were exposed to diacetyl in their workplace environment. We heat the stuff and purposefully inhale it. I mean.. that would - and should - concern anyone. And it's completely avoidable - so why not figure out how to avoid it?

Thank you Shanagan; And it's SO simple to do. If you're an eliquid supplier, source diacetyl free flavorings ONLY. If you can't make a current flavor without using flavorings containing diacetyl either A. Find a workable alternative that is diacetyl free or B. Don't make and sell that flavor. In conclusion, don't use diacetyl EVER. OR

Fund clinical safety trials that are peer-reviewable that establish a safe vapable diacetyl limit(I don't think too many suppliers are gonna pick this one)

 

[bombastinator]

They use Flavourart, how can their juice not have it in it? They even sell "butter" flavor juice.

well for one thing it's not the only way to make a butter flavoring, but you have a point in that perhaps they should double check.

 

[smokie]

I personally would like to know all the chemical ingredients in each juice before I decide to buy it, not what flavors the maker uses, but the chemical ingredients that make up those flavors. There should be a list of chemical ingredients for each juice sold on all suppliers sites that sell juices, just like all food products you buy have. I once bought a bottle of juice from TW, and they do list all the chemical ingredients for you, with names I could not pronounce, and did not have the slightest clue what they were until I looked them all up.

 

[rolygate]

Well, there are several ways to look at this.

1. I don't care, it has to be safer than smoking tobacco.
You're probably right, smoking has about the same risk as playing Russian roulette two or three times, with a time delay on the bullet if you lose. That seems a high risk to me, so in comparison ecigs look a better idea even if only 98% safer.

2. I'm going to try and make it as safe as possible.
Fair enough, in that case you'll only use unflavored liquid then, because right now it looks as if most of the risk is in the flavors. Make sure to use all-USP ingredients and you should be OK. I wouldn't bother about PG vs VG because chemically they are similar, as you can see from their proper names: propane 1,2-diol and propane 2,3-triol. Maybe one is better for us than the other, if you see what I mean, but just now nobody knows. Try 50-50 and even the odds.

3. I'm going to worry like hell about this.
Well, in that case DIY, and only source your ingredients from a chemist who can explain how the toxic materials were removed. Anyway, it matters not a jot what anyone says, only what their lab test results show. What are their lab test results by the way?

4. I'm going to spend a lot of time chasing the suppliers about this.
Can't blame you. It never ceases to amaze me how they expect people to inhale stuff they cook up who knows where, with zero lab test results given for the ingredients, and even admit to selling stuff with known toxic chemicals in it. Also, the way they have done absolutely zip about this whole area when it's been obvious for a long time that the government would come calling soon. Where are the lab test results for their liquids? Where is the proof that qualified personnel have examined the ingredients list and test results to ensure that these new products are safe to inhale? Two or three suppliers out of hundreds have done something about this. The industry as a whole has done nothing. There isn't even a functional trade association, if you can believe that. The industry is totally unregulated in any form, in the US. If you're OK with that - fine.

 

[markarich159]

Well, there are several ways to look at this.

1. I don't care, it has to be safer than smoking tobacco.
You're probably right, smoking has about the same risk as playing Russian roulette two or three times, with a time delay on the bullet if you lose. That seems a high risk to me, so in comparison ecigs look a better idea even if only 98% safer.

2. I'm going to try and make it as safe as possible.
Fair enough, in that case you'll only use unflavored liquid then, because right now it looks as if most of the risk is in the flavors. Make sure to use all-USP ingredients and you should be OK. I wouldn't bother about PG vs VG because chemically they are similar, as you can see from their proper names: propane 1,2-diol and propane 2,3-triol. Maybe one is better for us than the other, if you see what I mean, but just now nobody knows. Try 50-50 and even the odds.

3. I'm going to worry like hell about this.
Well, in that case DIY, and only source your ingredients from a chemist who can explain how the toxic materials were removed. Anyway, it matters not a jot what anyone says, only what their lab test results show. What are their lab test results by the way?

4. I'm going to spend a lot of time chasing the suppliers about this.
Can't blame you. It never ceases to amaze me how they expect people to inhale stuff they cook up who knows where, with zero lab test results given for the ingredients, and even admit to selling stuff with known toxic chemicals in it. Also, the way they have done absolutely zip about this whole area when it's been obvious for a long time that the government would come calling soon. Where are the lab test results for their liquids? Where is the proof that qualified personnel have examined the ingredients list and test results to ensure that these new products are safe to inhale? Two or three suppliers out of hundreds have done something about this. The industry as a whole has done nothing. There isn't even a functional trade association, if you can believe that. The industry is totally unregulated in any form, in the US. If you're OK with that - fine.

Or, if you're in the US, buy Dekang exclusively from a supplier you implicitly trust is not selling you a knock off Dekang. I've seen the MSDS's from DK and neither Diacetyl nor 2,3-butanedione are listed. I've also seen it mentioned on ECF before that(I believe it was Sun Vaporer) the main Chinese eliquid producer(that would be Dekang) does not use diacetyl(and if you can't trust Sun Vaporer , who can you trust - he's a virtual vaping encyclopedia)


The best option would be saftey/toxicity analyses studies to be run first on pre-clinical animal models then human clinical studies. This is, most likely, years away from occuring. I agree with the US thing completely, I'd much rather be a vaper living in the UK right now(and I hear the weather's lovely)

 

[Seabrook]

And for you people who would rather be safe than sorry, please please please DO NOT unload your dubious liquids onto unsuspecting people through the PIF subforum or the FS/Trade forum unless you tell them you're offering them liquids they might not be safe. Get rid of them appropriately and keep your conscience and karma clean.

And FWIW, I have never bought juice or flavoring off the FS subforum due to sanitation reasons. I wish ECF would not allow ppl to sell their consumables on the ECF website. I'm no science whiz, but I did take enough microbiology & labs in college to know that mold spores and dust motes can/will go airborne.

 

[smokie]

From my understanding their are four grades of PG on the market with one of them being Antifreeze grade. Now say a newbie juice maker uses that AF grade because he does not know any better, or does not care to know, how will I ever know? Unless they list all the chemical ingredients on their site using the proper chemical names, then at least they will be liable.

We as a vaping community just need to do something here to help protect, and assure the user, and keeping you know who away from our Liquids. The juice makers are eventually going to have to comply with this ingredients listing anyway if they are going to be allowed to continue making juices. And I am sure they will have to be approved, and licensed.

 

[banjo]

We can get the suppliers to provide us with ingredient lists on their juices - let the FDA control eliquids as a drug, and they will control the labeling. Personally, I doubt that many of our juice suppliers or makers really know the chemical composition of their juices, and probably have no way to easily find out, so we are stuck. Supplier X can tell us what PG, VG, and flavorings are used, and they can tell us what ever tid-bits of info their suppliers, who buy from other suppliers, tell them, but none of this is very scientific or conclusive. So we have a problem. If supplier X says "no diacetyl", can we believe them. I doubt it. Are they lying or trying to deceive us? I doubt that also. They just don't have any way to really know. Suppliers that we use could also spend a few thousand dollars or more, considerably more, to have all of their juices components analyzed at a certified lab, but I can't really see that happening - most are small operations that are operating on limited capital. My "witch hunt" reference in an earlier post doesn't refer to the problem posed by diacetl, but only to the tone of a couple of the posts.

 

[GoodDog]

Flavoring companies like LorAnn, Bickford, FlavourArt & Capella have Spec Sheets available for all their flavors. It wouldn't be difficult to have these available on the eLiquid vendors' websites. Since it covers the non-flavoring ingredients trade secrets would still be protected. I would also like to know when flavor enhancers are used separate from the flavorings!

 

[paulc35]

Hey gang if this is true about diacetyl causing (Bronchiolitis Obliterans Organizing Pneumonia) BOOP for short. This is a problem because this condition will kill you slowly. I'm a Respiratory Therapist for 16yrs and have only seen BOOP twice. It kills slowly by basically causing your lungs to stiffen. A fibrosis condition. You lose the ability to get oxygen in the blood and slowly suffocate. I'm going to have to look into this and see if it is actually linked to Boop....Be careful. If it is then this is the last thing we need in our juice then the media and FDA would stop ecigs for sure....

Take care'
Paul C

 

[SimpleSins]

Well, there are several ways to look at this.

1. I don't care, it has to be safer than smoking tobacco.
You're probably right, smoking has about the same risk as playing Russian roulette two or three times, with a time delay on the bullet if you lose. That seems a high risk to me, so in comparison ecigs look a better idea even if only 98% safer.

I'm just curious as to your take on things, Roly, since you do seem to have a pragmatic and reasoned view of safety. Do you feel that vaping diacetyl all day is safer than cigarette smoking? Since it is a component of several different flavors, it's easy to envision vaping it in one flavor or another over the course of an entire day, several days a week. So is vaping still better than cigarettes at that point?