Ask your favorite suppliers to remove diacetyl from their e-liquids!

[shanagan]

You know, it can't be a secret, it's just sitting there in their forum, after all. But take note, posting in that thread is not possible: it has been locked by the company owner.
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...8437-please-remove-diacetyl-your-liquids.html

 

[SimpleSins]

So far Backwoods Brew, Vapor Renu, Juicy Liquids, Decadent Vapor(Sold at Totally Wicked) all have stated that there is no Diacetyl in there juices. Those are only the ones I can remember though. As some have said though, it would be nice to see some lab tests. Two companies currently lab test, Ecopure/Intellicig sold at Cignot and Intellicig-usa, and esmoke.

For DIY flavors: LorAnn's states in the FAQ/Tips section of the website that they do not use Diacetyl in any of their flavorings. I haven't seen Capella's website yet.

Capella's does not use diacetyl. Some of Flavourart is diacetyl free, some has it, and some is unknown. TPA is said to be diacetyl free.

As far as vendors, just to be clear, there are a couple of Decadent Vapour's flavors that still have diacetyl- I believe coconut is one of them, although the majority of their juices are diacetyl free.

 

[Edwv30]

Good luck everyone. I brought up a, IMO, legitimate concern about one of the suppliers here accepting returned juices and vaping them a few weeks back. I was worried about returned juices being recirculated to other customers and the hazards involved, (if they feel comfortable enough to vape returned juices why wouldn't they feel comfortable enough to resell them?). Needless to say, I was attacked by many members here and the supplier himself. I was accused of being paranoid, alerting the FDA, trying to ruin a family business ...and on and on... I wasn't trying to do any of these things....just wanted to make sure that I, (and other members), purchased "fresh" juice from this vendor and free from possible contamination. I was actually told to go back to smoking analogues several times because of my concerns...really made me feel special. If you question suppliers here you will be attacked so stay strong

 

[texastumbleweed]

thank you. gosh i am sad to see that FSUSA and VaporBomb..my favorite ones are not on that list!!

So far Backwoods Brew, Vapor Renu, Juicy Liquids, Decadent Vapor(Sold at Totally Wicked) all have stated that there is no Diacetyl in there juices. Those are only the ones I can remember though. As some have said though, it would be nice to see some lab tests. Two companies currently lab test, Ecopure/Intellicig sold at Cignot and Intellicig-usa, and esmoke.

For DIY flavors: LorAnn's states in the FAQ/Tips section of the website that they do not use Diacetyl in any of their flavorings. I haven't seen Capella's website yet.

 

[shanagan]

thank you. gosh i am sad to see that FSUSA and VaporBomb..my favorite ones are not on that list!!

It's a short list so far - give it time to grow as more vendors research and/or reply. I do know that vaporbomb uses FlavourArt as well (both sell hypnotic mist & zen garden, which are FA flavors), but I don't know if vaporbomb uses FA exclusively or not, as fsusa does.

 

[Antwoord]

Yeah, I have some sympathy for the family run operations. I think that this is news to a lot of people. I hope that in time suppliers can take a different approach to dealing with this, and just be on the safe side.

It's interesting to note that the two suppliers who do lab test do not have a large variety of flavorings. I think this is because there are a lot of complex chemical compounds in artificial flavorings, and they are really practicing C.Y.A. LorAnn's has a fairly good selection of all natural flavorings, and also what are called essential oils. Those are probably fairly safe, but I'm definitely not a chemist.

Dekang has also "stated" that it doesn't use Diacetyl. There are a couple of other chemicals to watch out for, but my poor brain just can't keep up. Diacetyl may also be referred to by a different naming. Something like bse 2, bse 3, or something.

 

[Panini]

FWIW, I am not so concerned with whether or not a supplier uses flavoring that contains diacetyl. It's been shown through these posts that there are some vapers out there who feel it is of little concern. My issue is that I personally don't want to inhale diacetyl, so I have made a point of directly asking for disclosure on any flavors that contain it. I don't think consumers should unknowingly inhale something that has been proven to lead to a deadly lung condition.

That doesn't mean releasing proprietary information or accusing suppliers of trying to harm anyone. I just want to know if the flavors I'm vaping have diacetyl in them.

The first request, I was lied to (or my question was misunderstood, but I was told, point blank, that no ingredients used by the supplier contained diacetyl.) The second time, I was ignored. So my only safe option is to go with a supplier who will give me as much disclosure as possible. I still can't believe I'm running into this problem. There is no reason NOT to disclose whether or not something I am going to inhale could contain diacetyl. What is going on here?

Edit: I actually want to point out that I think it's extremely careless to use any flavors with diacetyl, despite my first sentence. Just in absence of pulling products or black-balling vendors, the very least I would expect would be disclosure.

 

[GiMante]

thank you. gosh i am sad to see that FSUSA and VaporBomb..my favorite ones are not on that list!!

It boils down to which flavoring company that they use. FSUSA uses FlavourArt, which some of the flavors contains diacetyl.You can avoid the flavors that contain diacetyl but then there are special mixes where the owners keep the recipe proprietary and you don't know what is mixed in it.

I'm not sure which company vaporbomb uses.

 

[Antwoord]

FWIW, I am not so concerned with whether or not a supplier uses flavoring that contains diacetyl. It's been shown through these posts that there are some vapers out there who feel it is of little concern. My issue is that I personally don't want to inhale diacetyl, so I have made a point of directly asking for disclosure on any flavors that contain it. I don't think consumers should unknowingly inhale something that has been proven to lead to a deadly lung condition.

That doesn't mean releasing proprietary information or accusing suppliers of trying to harm anyone. I just want to know if the flavors I'm vaping have diacetyl in them.

The first request, I was lied to (or my question was misunderstood, but I was told, point blank, that no ingredients used by the supplier contained diacetyl.) The second time, I was ignored. So my only safe option is to go with a supplier who will give me as much disclosure as possible. I still can't believe I'm running into this problem. There is no reason NOT to disclose whether or not something I am going to inhale could contain diacetyl. What is going on here?

Edit: I actually want to point out that I think it's extremely careless to use any flavors with diacetyl, despite my first sentence. Just in absence of pulling products or black-balling vendors, the very least I would expect would be disclosure.

I agree. I think part of the problem with the suppliers may be that they have no way of finding out what their flavorings contain besides consulting their chemists, and I think it's a knee-jerk reaction from them to try and maintain their reputations. From what I've seen from this community if a supplier were to adjust to concerns like this they would be forgiven, and things could keep on going. Business as usual.

 

[GoodDog]

If we had a list of ingredients we could research it ourselves if they don't have time. There may be many chemicals that are safe to ingest but not through the lungs. I spent hours on the phone today with the owner of a major worldwide flavoring company and he asked many of these questions to his expert flavorist/chemists. They all agreed that any amount of diacetyl is unsafe and should not be in our eLiquids.

I'm glad some of the new members to ECF, like Jeff, are intelligent and brave enough to raise these issues.

I've been here 10 months and this is not the first time diacetyl has been discussed. It always been swept under the rug or discounted and I hope it doesn't this time!

 

[Panini]

I agree. I think part of the problem with the suppliers may be that they have no way of finding out what their flavorings contain besides consulting their chemists, and I think it's a knee-jerk reaction from them to try and maintain their reputations.

For many ingredients, yes. But Flavourart has gone to the effort of fully disclosing which flavors contain diacetyl and how much because, and I quote: "We realize that for E smokers, our food flavors are used in a different way as they are not ingested but inhaled, and the presence of diacetyl can be a cause of concern."

For any supplier using Flavourart, it would simply be a matter of accessing the public list (which I was able to find very easily) and checking this against their recipes. The amounts are even listed there.

 

[GoodDog]

I agree. I think part of the problem with the suppliers may be that they have no way of finding out what their flavorings contain besides consulting their chemists, and I think it's a knee-jerk reaction from them to try and maintain their reputations. From what I've seen from this community if a supplier were to adjust to concerns like this they would be forgiven, and things could keep on going. Business as usual.

All FDA approved for food flavoring companies by law have to provide ingredients. It's very easy for vendors to provide this to their customers. They may not want to either because of the ingredients or because they don't use regulated flavorings. How then do we know if these are even safe for ingestion let alone inhalation?

 

[GoodDog]

For many ingredients, yes. But Flavourart has gone to the effort of fully disclosing which flavors contain diacetyl and how much because, and I quote: "We realize that for E smokers, our food flavors are used in a different way as they are not ingested but inhaled, and the presence of diacetyl can be a cause of concern."

For any supplier using Flavourart, it would simply be a matter of accessing the public list (which I was able to find very easily) and checking this against their recipes. The amounts are even listed there.

If I'm not mistaken they are required to by UK law. So it may not be that they're just being nice about it.

 

[shanagan]

Yeah, I have some sympathy for the family run operations. I think that this is news to a lot of people. I hope that in time suppliers can take a different approach to dealing with this, and just be on the safe side.

It's interesting to note that the two suppliers who do lab test do not have a large variety of flavorings. I think this is because there are a lot of complex chemical compounds in artificial flavorings, and they are really practicing C.Y.A. LorAnn's has a fairly good selection of all natural flavorings, and also what are called essential oils. Those are probably fairly safe, but I'm definitely not a chemist.

Dekang has also "stated" that it doesn't use Diacetyl. There are a couple of other chemicals to watch out for, but my poor brain just can't keep up. Diacetyl may also be referred to by a different naming. Something like bse 2, bse 3, or something.

2,3-butanedione? - I came across that one earlier. It is enough to make your head spin, for sure.

And I just want to reiterate - I'm not an alarmist, by any stretch of the imagination. I eat red meat, and prefer it charred on the outside, rare within, preferably cooked over an open flame. I drink - generally not as moderately as would be wise! - and I smoked for 28 years. I just kind of feel like this falls under a potential "immediate" cause for concern, rather than the longer term cause for alarm that is represented by - well, living.

Those people that are staring down "popcorn lung".. I don't quite know how to voice this concern, but microwave popcorn has only been in existence since what, 1980? So it isn't like they've been inhaling this stuff longer than I've been alive, because as far as I know, that would be impossible.

The guy that was diagnosed from making two bags a day of popcorn? That occurred over ten years. As was pointed out before, we're inhaling these deliberately with the intention of delivering the vapor into our lungs. Surely - what, a hundred puffs a day? - is enough of a level to at least want to minimalize the possibility of this chemical in our liquids.

I mean - if that makes me an alarmist, call me alarmed, I guess. And I guarantee you I have no ties to any liquid manufacturer, the FDA, big tobacco or any other straw men that have been brought up in The Thread That Is Now Locked.

 

[misterD]

i was thinking that maybe all this diacetyl thing is the reason why dekang changed their RY4 recipe. i would still vape it no matter what. now that i found a replacement (sort of) for it i just hope that they keep it as it is. FSUSA hopscotch and ry4 are so darn dang good!!!

 

[Panini]

If I'm not mistaken they are required to by UK law. So it may not be that they're just being nice about it.

My point was moreso that the flavoring manufacturer has fully disclosed the amounts and, whether required to or not, states that diacetyl can be a cause of concern when inhaled. One of the points on the closed thread begged the nature of the flavor manufacturer (as a family man) to create a product that would contain this ingredient in any level that may be of concern.

 

[Bovinia]

A supplier / vendor should feel a moral and ethical obligation to take every step necessary to make sure the products they sell are as safe a possible. They all have access to the MSDS sheets on the flavors they buy. Vendors also have the same ability to research on the internet and find this info on diacetyl or any other chemical they use. Not only am I disgusted by the FSUSA thread answer and closure, I am disgusted that WE THE CONSUMER have to dig all this out instead of our vendors self policing this industry. Any one of them can say this first time "I didn't know" but now that they do know, what will they do with this info? We know some are taking it seriously and at least one is not.

I am not on the fence with this issue, I have jumped the fence and I am livid! With the few dollars I do have to spend, I will be putting my money where my mouth is and not buy another drop of undisclosed juice.

Mark, I was wrong! Maybe attitude is exactly what is needed to let people know that it is our health and we will take responsibility for it!

 

[Antwoord]

All FDA approved for food flavoring companies by law have to provide ingredients. It's very easy for vendors to provide this to their customers. They may not want to either because of the ingredients or because they don't use regulated flavorings. How then do we know if these are even safe for ingestion let alone inhalation?

I can definitely see this side of it. I think there is negligence there, but I think it comes less out of a desire to purposefully withhold information or mislead people. I think it is a combination of inexperienced business owners, idealism, a little paranoia in a highly competitive and unregulated market, and maybe Pride. Your kitty avatar is overdosing, so I'd better finish this up. For me I'm going to be doing DIY for a while lol.

 

[GoodDog]

My point was moreso that the flavoring manufacturer has fully disclosed the amounts and, whether required to or not, states that diacetyl can be a cause of concern when inhaled. One of the points on the closed thread begged the nature of the flavor manufacturer (as a family man) to create a product that would contain this ingredient in any level that may be of concern.

After reading the other thread I understand now what you guys are talking about. lol That was quite the shock!!!

 

[Antwoord]

2,3-butanedione? - I came across that one earlier. It is enough to make your head spin, for sure.

And I just want to reiterate - I'm not an alarmist, by any stretch of the imagination. I eat red meat, and prefer it charred on the outside, rare within, preferably cooked over an open flame. I drink - generally not as moderately as would be wise! - and I smoked for 28 years. I just kind of feel like this falls under a potential "immediate" cause for concern, rather than the longer term cause for alarm that is represented by - well, living.

Those people that are staring down "popcorn lung".. I don't quite know how to voice this concern, but microwave popcorn has only been in existence since what, 1980? So it isn't like they've been inhaling this stuff longer than I've been alive, because as far as I know, that would be impossible.

The guy that was diagnosed from making two bags a day of popcorn? That occurred over ten years. As was pointed out before, we're inhaling these deliberately with the intention of delivering the vapor into our lungs. Surely - what, a hundred puffs a day? - is enough of a level to at least want to minimalize the possibility of this chemical in our liquids.

I mean - if that makes me an alarmist, call me alarmed, I guess. And I guarantee you I have no ties to any liquid manufacturer, the FDA, big tobacco or any other straw men that have been brought up in The Thread That Is Now Locked.

No, it definitely opened my eyes, freaked me out, depressed me, made me search around on the net for a few hours, and pray that the Dekang stuff I'm vaping isn't full of toxic chemicals. I even smoked an analogue. I'm just overly compassionate, and wish that the supplier we've been talking about sees the light.