Darwin...Is it really different?

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Switched

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Not to toot my own horn, I stated several pages back that the price would be prohibitive, to most. If you think this is prohibitive, the Cisco pulse will be another, that most won't be able to afford. Software has already been designed for vaping, so nothing new there. It's just that it hasn't surfaced on the market yet, but it exists.

It's all about timing... FWIW my $35 VV eGo does all I want it to do. Wrt the pricepoint of the Darwin, it came in $30 cheaper than I expected.
 

IndustrialAction

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Good points. Also keep in mind that the list price for a pro-vari is $199.95. Yes its on sale for $159.95, but you have to compare list price to list price. To start comparing sales prices, then we will have to wait and see if the Darwin goes on sale.

I'm with you Mutt, but have you noticed that just about everything on ProVape's site has a "list price" and a "sale price"? I don't know if everything is on sale or if the "sale price" is really the list price.

In any event, those of us that own mods own batteries and chargers. I agree that factoring those in to the Darwin's price makes sense because it isn't using the same stuff but the batteries and charger that I use for my Phidias work in my other mods and will work in my ProVari. I personally can't count that in the cost because I already had them.
 

IndustrialAction

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I'm probably technologically impaired (and frightened of change!:laugh:) but this design doesn't do much for me (looks like a tire gauge to me) and the price point is prohibitive, especially with no feeder. I figure if I wait a few months (and it gets great reviews meaning I need to get one! :laugh:) I'll be able to buy one used for 50-60% of that price -- but I am a cheap SOB, too!:)

Yep, Ripple, I'll be stalking the classifieds as well but I won't get one at $229.
 
I'm with you Mutt, but have you noticed that just about everything on ProVape's site has a "list price" and a "sale price"? I don't know if everything is on sale or if the "sale price" is really the list price.

In any event, those of us that own mods own batteries and chargers. I agree that factoring those in to the Darwin's price makes sense because it isn't using the same stuff but the batteries and charger that I use for my Phidias work in my other mods and will work in my ProVari. I personally can't count that in the cost because I already had them.

I did notice that everything had a list price and a sale price...if the sale price is the list price, then WTH is the list price? Is it a feel good point to trick someone into thinking they are getting a good deal? is it the price point they "think" their stuff is worth, but cant sell anything at that price? I am only asking because I never went to the provape site before and just thought everything was on sale for christmas. If the everyday pricing has some bogus "list price" thats BS.
 

IndustrialAction

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I did notice that everything had a list price and a sale price...if the sale price is the list price, then WTH is the list price? Is it a feel good point to trick someone into thinking they are getting a good deal? is it the price point they "think" their stuff is worth, but cant sell anything at that price? I am only asking because I never went to the provape site before and just thought everything was on sale for christmas. If the everyday pricing has some bogus "list price" thats BS.

I know, it is kind of weird. Maybe I haven't visited the site enough but any time that I've been out there, it seems everything is like that. I guess if it changes in the next few days, we'll have our answer.
 
I know, it is kind of weird. Maybe I haven't visited the site enough but any time that I've been out there, it seems everything is like that. I guess if it changes in the next few days, we'll have our answer.

I guess we will wait and see. If they really keep a fake list price to try and trick everyone into thinking its on sale, then the company is a joke. I seriously think/hope its just the christmas sale prices and the listed price is the listed price.
 
The difference between list price and sale price could be to reward early adopters (call it an 'anti-apple' pricing strategy), and build up some buzz about the product.

Think it gives a bit of wiggle room to adjust for the laws of supply and demand.

I have no problems if they offer a discounted price for early buyers, and in fact think its cool. I am not of fan of pre-orders, but thats just me. Selling the first xx number of mods at a reduced price is cool. Pre-orders are a totally different subject.

My complaint would be if they always have the "list" price and "sale" price. If its always on sale and the list price never happens, then its just a marketing ploy and to me that says the company is trying to make it seem like its worth more than it really is. If thats the case, then I stand by my previous statement that ANY company that does that, is a joke. The company can do what it wants to, as I dont have a dog in that race but the original point of the post though was to point out that the "list" price for a provari is $199.95 and the "list" price of the Darwin is $229. Its just not fair to compare a sales price of one product to the full list price of another.
 

dspin

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Didn't know you couldn't change batts. How does one get them out when worn out? Is this like the Tekk mod w/batts.


How do you guys feel this compares to the ProVari?

The Darwin is about $70 more then the ProVari, but they include batteries, charger and a two year warranty, plus they will allow you to return it, no questions asked, for the first week of ownership!

It's great to have competition!

Is the Darwin substatially smaller then the ProVari?

The Darwin does have built in battery, which has it's pluses and it's minuses. Can't bring a spare with you, but you can charge it from your USB. How do you guys feel about this tradeoff?

Can't wait to see what 2011 brings us! If the ProVari and Darwin are any indication, should be a great year for vapors!
 

clyde2801

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I have no problems if they offer a discounted price for early buyers, and in fact think its cool. I am not of fan of pre-orders, but thats just me. Selling the first xx number of mods at a reduced price is cool. Pre-orders are a totally different subject.

My complaint would be if they always have the "list" price and "sale" price. If its always on sale and the list price never happens, then its just a marketing ploy and to me that says the company is trying to make it seem like its worth more than it really is. If thats the case, then I stand by my previous statement that ANY company that does that, is a joke. The company can do what it wants to, as I dont have a dog in that race but the original point of the post though was to point out that the "list" price for a provari is $199.95 and the "list" price of the Darwin is $229. Its just not fair to compare a sales price of one product to the full list price of another.

We are in complete agreement. Especially on the subject of pre-orders. I remember the carlos juice box debacle from a year ago, and think of that when someone takes pre-orders. Speaking of which, I decided to fire up mine this morning....

Are you dripping on yours, Mutt, or using the vape mate?
 

Nomoreash

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Good points. Also keep in mind that the list price for a pro-vari is $199.95. Yes its on sale for $159.95, but you have to compare list price to list price. To start comparing sales prices, then we will have to wait and see if the Darwin goes on sale.

Point taken but I also think that's the price structuring strategy ProVape has implemented, as many do. The ProVape-1 has never sold for list and the ProVari has already went up from the pre order price. It may fluctuate a little but I seriously doubt based on their history it'll ever sale at List.
 

VpnDrgn

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a device which can adjust voltage and amperage "on the fly" to account for resistance leaves only the juice as a variable. Since I make my own juice and assume that I can maintain consistency there, this device should provide a consistent vape every time. The only adjustment I might have to make is if I want one juice to vape a little hotter than another.

I'm sure we all vape differently.

Personally, I change my atty (I'm a dripper) about once every four to six weeks.

On the other hand, I change my juice every fifteen, twenty minutes!

I've read (don't have a variable voltage device myself, yet), that different juices taste better at different settings, so I would presume you have to change the setting depending on what juice you're vaping, anyways.

As long as the VV device is easy enough to change voltage, I don't expect it to be a problem.

You stated "If the VW device can take these variances into account automatically and on the fly, this is a big step forward to me".... if you need to adjust the device for changes in juice anyways, how much of an advantage is it, really?

Just askin, not trying to start an argument or be disagreeable.

Like I said, if the device can eliminate all variables but the juice, I would be happy. I use cartos so "quality control" is an issue with me. Cartos that I buy today are performing differently than the ones I bought 2 months ago, even though they are the same brand and model. If a VW device can eliminate that problem, and I can maintain consistency on my juice, the price seems valid.

Another thing to keep in mind, an Ego starter kit generally runs $50 for 2 batts with charger and atties. It was stated earlier that the batteries should be good for 1000 cycles, calculate the avg user to get one day out of each charge and that's 2.75 years. From what I've read an Ego batt is only good for about 6 months. If you figure only using 2 batts in a day, that's 11 batts at appx $22 each over the 2.75 years. That's $242 over the 2.75 years that the Darwin should last.
That sounds comparable to me, and obviously and Ego batt can do none of the things a Darwin can.
 

NebulaBrot

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It is interesting to read and follow all the opinions since the price was posted. What fascinates me is just how many people have definitive opinions still without knowing what is in this device, what it does or how it does it.

But, before I even consider trying to evaluate (still without any facts) how this price-point compares to other devices - I had to have a look around. List prices: GGTS $160, Provari $199, Fistpack $200 (v3 not the unrealized V4), and many other VV devices in the $150+ range.

GGTS is, supposedly (never had one) and amazing all-mechanical device but it's price does not include batteries and charger so add in for at least 2 sets of batts and charger and the price difference narrows. Provari, granted - they use a different marketing strategy but they were not even supposed to start shipping until Dec 15; they started a week early and by the 17th there were all kinds of people posting complaints that they did not receive their ship notice yet. Some posting 5 to 10 times each day about shipping and/or complaining that units were not coming fast enough to satisfy their "opinion" so the company must be at "fault". Fistpack V4 simply promised and then never delivered but if V3 was $200 and V4 was supposed to have 16 settings compared to the original 4, one might think all the additional work to provide those settings would come with a price increase.

So, based on the three other devices we are looking at (not to mention the Eclipse/3DFS which I believe has been implicated to have a $250+ price tag), this price seems not so much out of line.

Next, if we consider that we know absolutely nothing about what is inside Darwin and/or truly what it does and how - we reflect on what we have been told so far. If I understand correctly, This device does something no other device has ever tried to do before. Again, based on what has been posted, Darwin is actual constantly adjusting (as compared to steadfastly holding) the volts - no other device does this (and Darwin is adjusting amps too). Darwin's "smart" design is supposedly going to constantly monitor the atty ohms and constantly adjust voltage and amps to deliver a consistent heat level. Many can, and probably will, argue the theories (many already have) about what is and is not doable relative to ohms law. And I have already admitted I am no EE so I have no desire to even try to entertain making any Ohms law arguments. But, what I can say is that my taste buds do not know ohms law either and they have not found a consistent vape yet. Provari will hold volts consistently but not the temperature of my vapor. Provari is a great device and I love that I can see my ohms, batt and volt setting all right on the device. At the same time, and I do not know which factors (or combinations of factors) contribute but I cannot find a smooth vape using my goto attys. I did find another atty which I can get a consistent vape but it is not the same as my goto. I still like that device (very happy I bought it) but I am also open to other "smart" approaches and I am equally convinced that "smart" devices are just beginning - after all, Darwin will be only the second "smart" device to launch.

So, if vapor is the product of the juice on the coil and it is heat that creates the vapor - I would assume the consistency of that heat level would determine the consistency of the vapor. Darwin is at least working in the direction of making that heat level more consistent. Will it accomplish it? I have no way on knowing. But, this device (and its manufacturers) are at least venturing into new territory. After all, why would anyone ever try to improve anything? Does cruise control and/or air conditioning improve the driving experience? Did icons improve the computing experience? People also argued the merits of the automatic transmission and today it is difficult to even find a manual tranny (after all - who wold ever want their car to monitor the engine for gear demands and make the adjustments when the driver can do it themselves? Who would ever want a heat/AC thermostat which automatically adjust the air temp and flow to maintain constant temperature when people can always turn the heat/Ac up or down as needed?).

This is the first device to try to work with amps. I have tried some basic - layman's - efforts to limit the variables and compare batteries with different amps ratings (B4 anyone jumps down my throat - I have already self admitted that I have no electrical credentials so I am ONLY doing this analysis based on my taste buds). I used a 5v regulated mod with same 3.1 ohms atty and same juice: put in AW LifePO4 rcr123a(s), then AW ICR rcr123a(s), and then AW IMR 16340 and get 3 completely different vape experiences. The main variable in this comparison is the amps (if we assume the regulator is maintaining a consistent 5V level - and even if not, it is the same device with same regulator).

So, this simple fact that Evolv is working towards managing a variable that nobody else is even approaching (AMPS) - and a variable that my taste buds are 100% convinced IS impacting the vapor experience, I am willing to give it a the benefit of the doubt - at least to see how it does. I am also convinced that all new "smart" mods will each (in their own ways) make big contributions to the following generations of PVs. We saw HUGE advancements in PVs during 2010 and I think will see much bigger advancements in 2011.

Finally, if we consider that the list price of Provari is $199 and add 2 batteries for at least $10 each and a charger ($15+), it already costs more than Darwin. And those batteries have no warranty at all. Granted, provari is still in its first month of production but list price is list price - and that device has a one yr warranty with an extension available for a second year (non-transferable). Darwin seems to includes a two year warranty, one year warranty on the batts and everything is included.

We can all argue about the price (which is certainly in line when we look at the only other 2 smart devices available or soon coming). We can all argue about removable batts - but why recreate an argument that has been argued to death (iPhone)? It turned out to be no issue and that device went on to become both the biggest selling phone and the phone which revolutionized the cell phone industry. As someone else posted, will Darwin be the iPhone of the PV world? Who knows? it could be and it might not. There were plenty of people who bet against the iPhone and later went and bought one (with their tails tucked between their legs and yet still enthusiastically giddy).

If this is not for you, ok - but comparing this to an ego is just silly. If we look at PVs like we look at cars or cell phones - some people have only one. Others have one primary and a back-up. Others still have an iPhone and and Android and a Blackberry. Some prefer BMW, others Porsche, Mercedes, etc and some have all three. Some people get a new cell phone and/or new car every year, others every two years and others only when absolutely necessary. some people are still happily using Motorola Razor phones.
 

VpnDrgn

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It is interesting to read and follow all the opinions since the price was posted. What fascinates me is just how many people have definitive opinions still without knowing what is in this device, what it does or how it does it.

But, before I even consider trying to evaluate (still without any facts) how this price-point compares to other devices - I had to have a look around. List prices: GGTS $160, Provari $199, Fistpack $200 (v3 not the unrealized V4), and many other VV devices in the $150+ range.

GGTS is, supposedly (never had one) and amazing all-mechanical device but it's price does not include batteries and charger so add in for at least 2 sets of batts and charger and the price difference narrows. Provari, granted - they use a different marketing strategy but they were not even supposed to start shipping until Dec 15; they started a week early and by the 17th there were all kinds of people posting complaints that they did not receive their ship notice yet. Some posting 5 to 10 times each day about shipping and/or complaining that units were not coming fast enough to satisfy their "opinion" so the company must be at "fault". Fistpack V4 simply promised and then never delivered but if V3 was $200 and V4 was supposed to have 16 settings compared to the original 4, one might think all the additional work to provide those settings would come with a price increase.

So, based on the three other devices we are looking at (not to mention the Eclipse/3DFS which I believe has been implicated to have a $250+ price tag), this price seems not so much out of line.

Next, if we consider that we know absolutely nothing about what is inside Darwin and/or truly what it does and how - we reflect on what we have been told so far. If I understand correctly, This device does something no other device has ever tried to do before. Again, based on what has been posted, Darwin is actual constantly adjusting (as compared to steadfastly holding) the volts - no other device does this (and Darwin is adjusting amps too). Darwin's "smart" design is supposedly going to constantly monitor the atty ohms and constantly adjust voltage and amps to deliver a consistent heat level. Many can, and probably will, argue the theories (many already have) about what is and is not doable relative to ohms law. And I have already admitted I am no EE so I have no desire to even try to entertain making any Ohms law arguments. But, what I can say is that my taste buds do not know ohms law either and they have not found a consistent vape yet. Provari will hold volts consistently but not the temperature of my vapor. Provari is a great device and I love that I can see my ohms, batt and volt setting all right on the device. At the same time, and I do not know which factors (or combinations of factors) contribute but I cannot find a smooth vape using my goto attys. I did find another atty which I can get a consistent vape but it is not the same as my goto. I still like that device (very happy I bought it) but I am also open to other "smart" approaches and I am equally convinced that "smart" devices are just beginning - after all, Darwin will be only the second "smart" device to launch.

So, if vapor is the product of the juice on the coil and it is heat that creates the vapor - I would assume the consistency of that heat level would determine the consistency of the vapor. Darwin is at least working in the direction of making that heat level more consistent. Will it accomplish it? I have no way on knowing. But, this device (and its manufacturers) are at least venturing into new territory. After all, why would anyone ever try to improve anything? Does cruise control and/or air conditioning improve the driving experience? Did icons improve the computing experience? People also argued the merits of the automatic transmission and today it is difficult to even find a manual tranny (after all - who wold ever want their car to monitor the engine for gear demands and make the adjustments when the driver can do it themselves? Who would ever want a heat/AC thermostat which automatically adjust the air temp and flow to maintain constant temperature when people can always turn the heat/Ac up or down as needed?).

This is the first device to try to work with amps. I have tried some basic - layman's - efforts to limit the variables and compare batteries with different amps ratings (B4 anyone jumps down my throat - I have already self admitted that I have no electrical credentials so I am ONLY doing this analysis based on my taste buds). I used a 5v regulated mod with same 3.1 ohms atty and same juice: put in AW LifePO4 rcr123a(s), then AW ICR rcr123a(s), and then AW IMR 16340 and get 3 completely different vape experiences. The main variable in this comparison is the amps (if we assume the regulator is maintaining a consistent 5V level - and even if not, it is the same device with same regulator).

So, this simple fact that Evolv is working towards managing a variable that nobody else is even approaching (AMPS) - and a variable that my taste buds are 100% convinced IS impacting the vapor experience, I am willing to give it a the benefit of the doubt - at least to see how it does. I am also convinced that all new "smart" mods will each (in their own ways) make big contributions to the following generations of PVs. We saw HUGE advancements in PVs during 2010 and I think will see much bigger advancements in 2011.

Finally, if we consider that the list price of Provari is $199 and add 2 batteries for at least $10 each and a charger ($15+), it already costs more than Darwin. And those batteries have no warranty at all. Granted, provari is still in its first month of production but list price is list price - and that device has a one yr warranty with an extension available for a second year (non-transferable). Darwin seems to includes a two year warranty, one year warranty on the batts and everything is included.

We can all argue about the price (which is certainly in line when we look at the only other 2 smart devices available or soon coming). We can all argue about removable batts - but why recreate an argument that has been argued to death (iPhone)? It turned out to be no issue and that device went on to become both the biggest selling phone and the phone which revolutionized the cell phone industry. As someone else posted, will Darwin be the iPhone of the PV world? Who knows? it could be and it might not. There were plenty of people who bet against the iPhone and later went and bought one (with their tails tucked between their legs and yet still enthusiastically giddy).

If this is not for you, ok - but comparing this to an ego is just silly. If we look at PVs like we look at cars or cell phones - some people have only one. Others have one primary and a back-up. Others still have an iPhone and and Android and a Blackberry. Some prefer BMW, others Porsche, Mercedes, etc and some have all three. Some people get a new cell phone and/or new car every year, others every two years and others only when absolutely necessary. some people are still happily using Motorola Razor phones.

I was just using the Ego as an example for price comparison since it is a common device for the average user, obviously as PV's there is no comparison.
To the rest of the post : DITTO :)
 

jimho

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Like I said, if the device can eliminate all variables but the juice, I would be happy.I use cartos so "quality control" is an issue with me. Cartos that I buy today are performing differently than the ones I bought 2 months ago, even though they are the same brand and model. If a VW device can eliminate that problem, and I can maintain consistency on my juice, the price seems valid .

That's the point of many of us that are questioning with this device and allot of the hype- maintaining power as a constant does not eliminate the variables: the idea of a sweet spot being a power setting at which all attys are equalized discounts the differences in atty construction- 2 Ohms on a 801 is not the same as 2 Ohms on a 510 atty, 9 Watts on an HV atty is not the same as 9 Watts on an LR atty, and a 1.7 Ohm Greenhouse One atty is not the same as a 1.7 Ohm Ikenvape 510.
Every atty/carto has different airflow, different coil lengths and different juice delivery profiles- all of which effect the temperature, the contact surface area, and thus the vapor production.

If your expectation is that one power level represents your sweet spot on all attys, you will be disappointed.
If you stick a single atty/carto in, use one flavor of juice mixed consistently, and use that atty till it's dead, your experience should be consistent very here as it would be with any well regulated device that controls voltage (like a ProVari). However, there has been no evidence presented that suggests it will be better.

RE price differences- At this price level, I'd consider the history, reputation and communications from the manufacturer to be more important than the 10 or 20% price difference - over the life of the product the price difference is inconsequential if the product delivers. At the same time $200 is a barrier at least emotionally where one has to ask what's better here about this device and the people selling it compared to it's nearest competition-
 

BigBopper

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@NebulaBrot, Wow, holy long post, batman. For the record, I drive a Ford truck made in Michigan.

I've been vaping for ~10 months, most of which is on a Stick v3. I love the size and feel of the Stick, and the vapor production, when it fires, but the button is driving me crazy. Sometimes it fires, sometimes it doesn't, sometimes I have to work the button, sometimes it quits partway through a drag. Talk about inconsistent!!
I started looking for something new and better a couple months ago, and am glad that I ran across this Darwin thread. I'm eagerly awaiting the release of the Darwin. I'm not real thrilled about the size or price (say goodbye to that stealth vaping), but I do believe I will be please with my purchase.

Al
 
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AngusATAT

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I'm eagerly awaiting the release of the Darwin. I'm not real thrilled about the size or prize (say goodbye to that stealth vaping), but I do believe I will be please with my purchase.

I'd be willing to bet that most people who end up buying one will be very happy with the way it performs. As far as looks go, it's not very tradtional, but I like it because it looks different than all the other tube or box mods we've seen. It's a lot better looking than the original beta cases we saw earlier in the thread, and you'll have to work up a sweat to scratch the double hard coat anodizing... if you can.

Then there is the warranty. Two years is a nice, long time in the life of a mod, especially one with electronics. And a one-year warranty on just the batteries, as well. That's pretty nice, in my opinion. Well worth a bump in the price point.

I don't see anyone stealth vaping with the Darwin. But then again, I don't see how anyone could with any large mod. I use my eGo at work for that, and leave my mods at home.

Personally, I can't wait to get my hands on one of the production models. Actually, I'm still getting two. Although I will still be a little sad when I give up my RedneckDarwin.
 
Point taken but I also think that's the price structuring strategy ProVape has implemented, as many do. The ProVape-1 has never sold for list and the ProVari has already went up from the pre order price. It may fluctuate a little but I seriously doubt based on their history it'll ever sale at List.

If this is indeed the case, I will steer clear of provape altogether. Trying to build false value in your product by presenting a fake price that the device will never sell for, is underhanded at best. I am still giving them the benefit of the doubt and saying that the prices listed are christmas/holiday pricing.
 

IndustrialAction

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For me personally, there are only three things keeping me from buying a Darwin. One is the look (just not for me), another is the side-mounted atty/carto attachment and the third is the price. The price might change but the look and the side-mounted attachment just don't do it for me. I love the concept but the final product just isn't my personal style and isn't going to meet my needs. The ProVari on the other-hand, while lacking the most sophisticated aspects of the Darwin, does what I want it to, has a reasonable price (especially since I got the pre-order pricing), has a standard look (yes, not flashy or different but it works for me) and will take the atty/carto mods without an issue. I have no doubt that those that choose the Darwin will be happy with their choice. Some day I may own one but it won't be in the next few months.
 
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