Darwin...Is it really different?

[jimho]

Jimho -

I'm not going to argue the changes but I do think there is a difference between what Darwin claims to do and what a regulated/boosted VV device like the ProVari does. If we buy into the "statement" that the sweet-spot for each juice lies in your power (wattage) then a device that self regulates to automatically deliver the same wattage regardless of the resistance of the atty/carto attached could be seen as being "better" than a device that varies voltage. Now, using the formulas or an Ohm's Law calculator, you can compensate for this but a device that does it for you can been seen as having an advantage (which each person can decide for themselves how important that really is). The addition of constant self-regulation to maintain consistent wattage is something that I have not seen in other devices.

if you believe there is a sweet spot for all attys with the same resistance then it would make sense. But you know that isn't the case. Here's where I can see it being a bit of a plus: suppose like Angus you bought a lot of attys rated at x ohm from the same run- some come in at x, some come in at x+.1, x+.2, x-.1, x-.2 - then you could set the power once and leave it there and the device would compensate. Its not that I don't think there is merit in the concept of actively adjusting the power as the nichrome resistance changes, it's just that I don't believe there's real world added value in it because the variance is so minimal.

A couple of hundred pages ago I made an analogy to high end audio equipment- there's a point of diminishing returns after which it doesn't matter. So use Ohm law here:
Angus says we're running as high as 500F (I think the wire is hotter but we can use his number)

There are several different listings for temperature coefficient for nichtrome wire- it varys with the additional aloys and in some cases with temp as well....
here's the one I used - (go find any and plug it in) :
Temperature coefficient of resistance : PHYSICS OF CONDUCTORS AND INSULATORS

Change in resistance = Temperature coefficient * (Operating Temp - Room Temp)

Room Temp = 72F = 22C
Operating Temp= 500F = 260C

Change in resistance between 72F and 500F = .00017*(260-22) = .04046 Ohms
Negligable and as per previous post irrelevant because that swing only occurs when you first heat it from room temp to operating temp.

 

[bigsix300]

Well said Jimho I'm like you its a nice device but wether its worth it or not its hard to say.

 

[jimho]

I... my question was exactly what does the Darwin do differently that a VV device that causes that to be of concern.

goes back to the original claim that it was BETTER because attys resistance varies as it heats up... That's what' I'm disputing.

And TBQH i've looked at too many various compositions of nichrome wire to even care to be that accurate anymore. There was one point when making a bunch of homebuilt attys that I thought crappy nichrome may be the reason so many died so quickly, so i tried more configurations than i ever want to repeat. The point was that each circuit world be different with each unique atty as the composition and design of the coil changes, and yes there is variation but how did the Darwin contribute more than simply varying the voltage.

I went up that road too....I think I'm on the same page as you but a bit more frustrated after watching for almost 2 months, that we don't have a clear answer. Assuming that's all it does, it seems to be more of a novelty. Interesting yes, but in practice its compensating for an insignificant change on the same atty and it can't compensate for the physical differences between different attys.

 

[Uma]

Does this go to only 5.0 ish or does it go higher, like 6 and 7 volt? I have some HR attys to get try ...

 

[IndustrialAction]

if you believe there is a sweet spot for all attys with the same resistance then it would make sense. But you know that isn't the case. Here's where I can see it being a bit of a plus: suppose like Angus you bought a lot of attys rated at x ohm from the same run- some come in at x, some come in at x+.1, x+.2, x-.1, x-.2 - then you could set the power once and leave it there and the device would compensate. Its not that I don't think there is merit in the concept of actively adjusting the power as the nichrome resistance changes, it's just that I don't believe there's real world added value in it because the variance is so minimal.

A couple of hundred pages ago I made an analogy to high end audio equipment- there's a point of diminishing returns after which it doesn't matter. So use Ohm law here:
Angus says we're running as high as 500F (I think the wire is hotter but we can use his number)

There are several different listings for temperature coefficient for nichtrome wire- it varys with the additional aloys and in some cases with temp as well....
here's the one I used - (go find any and plug it in) :
Temperature coefficient of resistance : PHYSICS OF CONDUCTORS AND INSULATORS

Change in resistance = Temperature coefficient * (Operating Temp - Room Temp)

Room Temp = 72F = 22C
Operating Temp= 500F = 260C

Change in resistance between 72F and 500F = .00017*(260-22) = .04046 Ohms
Negligable and as per previous post irrelevant because that swing only occurs when you first heat it from room temp to operating temp.

You missed my actual point by a long shot.

 

[jimho]

You missed my actual point by a long shot.

maybe what you said didn't reflect the point you were trying to make.
I don't buy that every juice has a sweet spot that can be expressed in power, perhaps every juice on a given atty has a sweet related to power but once you change attys (brand or style) the sweet spot is going to be different ... and I don't accept that the variances due to changes in nichrome wire resistance are a factor worth accounting for- and I gave you the numbers to justify why I don't accept it.

So what was the point you were trying to make?

 

[IndustrialAction]

maybe what you said didn't reflect the point you were trying to make.
I don't buy that every juice has a sweet spot that can be expressed in power, perhaps every juice on a given atty has a sweet related to power but once you change attys (brand or style) the sweet spot is going to be different ... and I don't accept that the variances due to changes in nichrome wire resistance are a factor worth accounting for- and I gave you the numbers to justify why I don't accept it.

So what was the point you were trying to make?

I didn't say that you had to buy into the wattage sweet-spot for your juice, I said that IF you buy that, then that is the differentiator between Darwin and other VV devices. If you buy into the premise, then all you need to know is what wattage you enjoy your juice at. After that, it doesn't matter what atty/carto you have attached because Darwin will always deliver that wattage even when you go from one resistance atty/carto to another.

In other words, IF I buy into this concept and I find that I enjoy my TV Waffles at 6W, my VB Cinnabomb at 4.3W and my FSUSA Hopscotch at 10.8W, then that's all I need to know. I wouldn't care what atty or carto I screw on because I'd just set the wattage to my target and vape away and Darwin is supposed to deliver a consistent experience every time.

 

[AngusATAT]

And yes it would be nice for Brandon to fix his web site and fix his status so he can actually post, discuss and defend the results and his claims. I'd also like to know how he managed to set up a consistent test to make sure his results were reliable....He's been promising that for a good 6 weeks now.

I just got off the phone with him, and stressed how important it was for him to do this ASAP. If he isn't up and ready this weekend, I 'll take a drive up to Ohio with Mutt and we'll chain him to a chair until he gets it done.

 

[AngusATAT]

Does this go to only 5.0 ish or does it go higher, like 6 and 7 volt? I have some HR attys to get try ...

Actually, I believe the top voltage it can go to is 13v. I'm not sure what it would take to get it up that high, though. But you'll be just fine using HV atties on it.

 

[AngusATAT]

Hey Angus, ( Robin Hood, Jane is not )
Have you got any inside info on a release date?!!!

Do I? Yes... yes I do.

Only thing I can say right now is that it's going to be very soon. They're in the final stages right now.

 

[REGGAEGEEK]

goes back to the original claim that it was BETTER because attys resistance varies as it heats up... That's what' I'm disputing.


I went up that road too....I think I'm on the same page as you but a bit more frustrated after watching for almost 2 months, that we don't have a clear answer. Assuming that's all it does, it seems to be more of a novelty. Interesting yes, but in practice its compensating for an insignificant change on the same atty and it can't compensate for the physical differences between different attys.

I think we're both on the same issue here....I'd like to see the circuit so we could see what's there to deliver anything unique but as this is going to be a production device i know we won't so I just asked a couple of questions since it basically sounded about like a VV device with slightly different program to set wattage instead of voltage. That's what started all the questions about how much the device could really improve by maintaining Watts instead of just Volts.....
I think it makes sense from a user friendly interface but can't seem to get an answer on what the device may actually do that's so beneficial over just maintaining static voltage for the load.

Angus says the variations in the load (and i am assuming as i believe you are) that we are talking about 1 load during use and not different attys over time, are more significant that i would have thought just based on speculation. Hopefully Brandon can post the data soon for us all to scope.

I will hold off until new info is posted since i have not run any monitored tests to see what the variations are under actual conditions...and it wouldnt' matter unless they are performed using the actual device in question anyway...Hopefully there will be some real benefits demonstrated by the Darwin, but i'll wait for more data and do less speculation....

 

[AngusATAT]

A little Darwin video pr0n for ya...

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/nhaler/151096-darwin-evolve.html

 

[benjayman2]

A little Darwin video pr0n for ya...

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/nhaler/151096-darwin-evolve.html

Yay finally get to see the darwin in action. Does show how tank mods (even though the ato-miser is not) and mod similar in size may be a problem on the darwin, but good vid nevertheless.

 

[AngusATAT]

Yay finally get to see the darwin in action. Does show how tank mods (even though the ato-miser is not) and mod similar in size may be a problem on the darwin, but good vid nevertheless.

SHouldn't be a problem, really. Just use the 510-510 adapter from either Cignot or COV to give it a little length. I think they call them charging adapters for the eGo.

 

[benjayman2]

SHouldn't be a problem, really. Just use the 510-510 adapter from either Cignot or COV to give it a little length. I think they call them charging adapters for the eGo.

Oh I didn't mean they didn't work on it just meant as far as putting it in the close position it would be a little awkward. I actually really enjoyed the quick look Drew gave us. It showed how easy it was to switch out attys and use them without a hitch. good work Evolve

 

[kevbow]

Drew said he's getting about 2 to 2 and 1/2 days out of the battery.

 

[IndustrialAction]

What's with Nhaler selling the Darwin? I though the were being sold directly.

 

[jimho]

I didn't say that you had to buy into the wattage sweet-spot for your juice, I said that IF you buy that, then that is the differentiator between Darwin and other VV devices. If you buy into the premise, then all you need to know is what wattage you enjoy your juice at. After that, it doesn't matter what atty/carto you have attached because Darwin will always deliver that wattage even when you go from one resistance atty/carto to another.

In other words, IF I buy into this concept and I find that I enjoy my TV Waffles at 6W, my VB Cinnabomb at 4.3W and my FSUSA Hopscotch at 10.8W, then that's all I need to know. I wouldn't care what atty or carto I screw on because I'd just set the wattage to my target and vape away and Darwin is supposed to deliver a consistent experience every time.

I'm not sure if we're arguing or saying the same thing. The problem I'm having is you seem to be leaving out/ignoring the variables introduced by different attys. So if you like Cinnabomb at 4.3W on a Joye std 510, you might find it cool on an 801 mini or hot on an SLB 1.7..... so maybe you're just saying "if you ignore the tphysical differences between attys" and I'm saying "you can't ignore them".

 

[jimho]

I think we're both on the same issue here....I'd like to see the circuit so we could see what's there to deliver anything unique but as this is going to be a production device i know we won't so I just asked a couple of questions since it basically sounded about like a VV device with slightly different program to set wattage instead of voltage. That's what started all the questions about how much the device could really improve by maintaining Watts instead of just Volts.....
I think it makes sense from a user friendly interface but can't seem to get an answer on what the device may actually do that's so beneficial over just maintaining static voltage for the load.

Angus says the variations in the load (and i am assuming as i believe you are) that we are talking about 1 load during use and not different attys over time, are more significant that i would have thought just based on speculation. Hopefully Brandon can post the data soon for us all to scope.

I will hold off until new info is posted since i have not run any monitored tests to see what the variations are under actual conditions...and it wouldnt' matter unless they are performed using the actual device in question anyway...Hopefully there will be some real benefits demonstrated by the Darwin, but i'll wait for more data and do less speculation....

Same page .... but I'm adding the variations might not be due to fluctuations in the nichrome coil resistance, they could be related to atty construction, in which case changing the power might not have the effect you think it does as we're primarily concerned with the heat at the coil. Like I said several weeks ago, till we see data and have a chance to understand it, its hard to accept the claims.

Especially if you have torn apart your share of attys -

 

[IndustrialAction]

I'm not sure if we're arguing or saying the same thing. The problem I'm having is you seem to be leaving out/ignoring the variables introduced by different attys. So if you like Cinnabomb at 4.3W on a Joye std 510, you might find it cool on an 801 mini or hot on an SLB 1.7..... so maybe you're just saying "if you ignore the tphysical differences between attys" and I'm saying "you can't ignore them".

Yeah, we're not discussing the same thing. I was only considering resistance differences within the same type (510 to 510, 801 to 801, etc). My fault.