Deeming Regulations Are In Effect

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Lessifer

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Well, then that should also apply to cars, lawnmowers, bbq grills, etc... They get add-ons all the time and the shops adding them on are not considered manufacturers...
True, but it's "tobacco" so there are "special" rules...
I think it's a problem of the one size fits all regulations in the FSPTCA. Consider Roll Your Own. If you're a tobacco shop that cells loose cigarette tobacco, and you sell paper tubes with filters, that's just retail. If you then offer the service of stuffing those tubes with the tobacco, I'm pretty sure that makes you a "manufacturer."
 

Ed_C

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All this hype about underage sales in my area is just a total waste of time because there were No Sales to underage previously. The only difference as of yesterday is that anyone under 27 must have ID checked and that was already being done.
While it is my opinion that vape shops are generally good about not selling to minors, none of us can say that no vape shop sells to minors. l'm pretty sure that just like cigarettes and alcohol, there are some venders who will sell to them. This has always been the case.
 

Bob Chill

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True, but it's "tobacco" so there are "special" rules...
I think it's a problem of the one size fits all regulations in the FSPTCA. Consider Roll Your Own. If you're a tobacco shop that cells loose cigarette tobacco, and you sell paper tubes with filters, that's just retail. If you then offer the service of stuffing those tubes with the tobacco, I'm pretty sure that makes you a "manufacturer."

I agree with you often and I agree again. Gov logic is weird. They have to operate inside of legislation previously passed. The FDA can't make up "new guidelines" for a product that has yet to be recognized as separate. I don't believe the FDA has authority to classify ecigs as "ecigs". They simply fall into a tobacco product category.

I do think in this case that trying to jam ecigs into dated regulation is illogical. There has been plenty of opportunity to make this case though. And not 1 ounce of effort was made to do so. So we're stuck at a crossroads of sorts. Will ecigs get their own set of rules or not?

Now that the deeming is actually in effect and no longer proposed we should get our answer inside of 2 years. Probably 1 year if I had to guess. The more stories/issues/problems that are exposed the better. We are only a few days in and they are already becoming obvious. At least to us anyways.
 

Bob Chill

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While it is my opinion that vape shops are generally good about not selling to minors, none of us can say that no vape shop sells to minors. l'm pretty sure that just like cigarettes and alcohol, there are some venders who will sell to them. This has always been the case.

I agree but the whole underage thing is a bit of a ruse. Headlines after the effective date are all about "no ecig sales to minors". Which sounds great and is easy to support if you only read headlines. It feels like a deflection or disguise though. If the 499 pages only regulated age requirements then fine. But we all know that is far from what is happening.
 

Ed_C

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I agree but the whole underage thing is a bit of a ruse. Headlines after the effective date are all about "no ecig sales to minors". Which sounds great and is easy to support if you only read headlines. It feels like a deflection or disguise though. If the 499 pages only regulated age requirements then fine. But we all know that is far from what is happening.
Yes, I totally agree.
 

Spacewaffle

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While it is my opinion that vape shops are generally good about not selling to minors, none of us can say that no vape shop sells to minors. l'm pretty sure that just like cigarettes and alcohol, there are some venders who will sell to them. This has always been the case.
Agree and disagree respectfully
I don't think that comparison of vape stores and tobacco and alcohol stores fits together.
Because if you own a vape shop you are a vaper or atleast most of us would agree that majority are. Im yet to see non vaping owner or even staff member.
With that being said if you are an owner who is also a vaper you are an ex smoker.
Again most would agree that majority of us came from smoking cigarettes.
So ex smoker turned to vaper because he thought it was a safer alternative to smoking then opens a vape shop because he thinks it's a good business because he actually believes that it's safer and others should do it.
Then he starts selling it to kids? That's illogical for this person not to mention he's whole business directly benefits from advocacy and corrupting minors isn't that.
So unless most alcohol store owners are ex alcoholics and tobacco store owneRS smoke 2 packs a day they cannot be compared to a vape shop.
Thus vape shops by their origin will have lower sales to minors.
It's almost anomolic that there is a vape store that sells to minor currently. But regulation still needed and nobody against it because they al ready self regulated.
 
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Vandal

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I agree but the whole underage thing is a bit of a ruse. Headlines after the effective date are all about "no ecig sales to minors". Which sounds great and is easy to support if you only read headlines. It feels like a deflection or disguise though. If the 499 pages only regulated age requirements then fine. But we all know that is far from what is happening.
This is just what is going on, from what I have seen- the FDA and general media are acting like it's all about age restriction and not letting on what's really there will decimate the industry within 2 years. Who is going to bother reading the regs to find out any different? By the time people have figured it out, it will be too late.
 

Ed_C

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Agree and disagree respectfully
I don't think that comparison of vape stores and tobacco and alcohol stores fits together.
Because if you own a vape shop you are a vaper or atleast most of us would agree that majority are. Im yet to see non vaping owner or even staff member.
With that being said if you are an owner who is also a vaper you are an ex smoker.
Again most would agree that majority of us came from smoking cigarettes.
So ex smoker turned to vaper because he thought it was a safer alternative to smoking then opens a vape shop because he thinks it's a good business because he actually believes that it's safer and others should do it.
Then he starts selling it to kids? That's illogical for this person not to mention he's whole business directly benefits from advocacy and corrupting minors isn't that.
So unless most alcohol store owners are ex alcoholics and tobacco store owneRS smoke 2 packs a day they cannot be compared to a vape shop.
Thus vape shops by their origin will have lower sales to minors.
It's almost anomolic that there is a vape store that sells to minor currently. But regulation still needed and nobody against it because they al ready self regulated.
Maybe the majority, but there are those that jumped on the vaping bandwagon to make a quick buck or convenience markets that I'm not so sure about. As an educator I can tell you that there is a lot
of kids that are getting vapes from somewhere.
 

Spacewaffle

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Maybe the majority, but there are those that jumped on the vaping bandwagon to make a quick buck or convenience markets that I'm not so sure about. As an educator I can tell you that there is a lot
of kids that are getting vapes from somewhere.
I do agree with you. I think most were just ordering online with mom's credit card. Or even their own. Regulations are necessary for this I agree.

Ps.
Thanks for being an educator!
 
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mcclintock

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    I posted some post-deeming info. on the Post 8-8-16 Stocking thread...that the owner of several area vape shops passed along to his employees in a meeting with them all yesterday morning. Here's just a few things he told them that the FDA is planning to do:

    As of 1-1-2017 the FDA will give a reward of $10,000 to anyone who turns in someone who is making juice not in an approved facility. (I asked my neighbor, who is an employee there, about home juice makers, and he said the owner said beware if you make and sell any of it to others...even friends).

    The FDA is trying to get a system worked out to hire a large number of people who either are underage, or "look to be underage"...to go into vape shops on a "sting" mission, to see if they all get carded before being able to buy anything, and denied if they are indeed underage! Said they wanted to somehow get local Health Depts. involved in it, too.

    As far as what goes on in his own shops:

    No more custom juice in a variety of ratios, to cut down on # of different products they make. Will only be making 20PG/80VG, unless someone asks for the "COPD blend" (which is 50/50).

    His employees are to card everyone...doesn't matter if they're silver haired and are most likely 60+ years old - they get carded before being able to buy anything!

    The owner "thinks" he's found a way to get around having testers in his shops, by having people become verified "members" of a vaping club in order to use them. Paying their monthly membership dues would entitle them to both sample tester eliquids and/or buy things in his shops. If you're not a "member", you can't do either.

    He didn't detail any changes for his website sales. Neighbor who works there said the owner told them he still had things to "work out" for his online business.

    Just thought I'd pass those things along. Don't know if any other shops are planning similar things, but I guess we'll see as time goes by.

    The $10,000 reward thing is just evil. Turn friends against friends. If that happens, this is war.

    I can see value in shops "acting stupid" ("that's not made out of tobacco!"), putting the courts in the role of having to repeatedly defend FDA doublespeak against common sense, but of course I'm not on the front lines.
     

    salemgold

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    There actually were a few people here who Knew the sky wasn't going to fall on Aug 9. Ridicule was heaped upon them by the hand wringers.

    Who's the eedeeits now?

    Bruce in Ocala, Fl

    Oh, yeah. You are the one that said prices will be same or lower this time next year and everything will be just as available as before regs. Jury is still out on this one :lol:

    This is just the beginning of the ENDS so you may want to hold off on being so smug for a bit.
     

    SteveS45

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    While it is my opinion that vape shops are generally good about not selling to minors, none of us can say that no vape shop sells to minors. l'm pretty sure that just like cigarettes and alcohol, there are some venders who will sell to them. This has always been the case.

    In New York City and Suffolk county the age for Tobacco products is 21 and in Nassau County it is 19. So the FDA's Deeming is actually lowering the age?
     

    mattiem

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    There actually were a few people here who Knew the sky wasn't going to fall on Aug 9. Ridicule was heaped upon them by the hand wringers.

    Who's the eedeeits now?

    Bruce in Ocala, Fl
    I feel sure even the folks on the stockpiling threads knew "The sky wasn't going to fall" the day after 8/8/2016 but they could see the writing on the wall and those walls are slowly closing in. If the courts don't step in and put a stop to this madness the vape industry as we know it is going to be in a world of hurt. We that paid attention and stocked up will be alright but those that didn't listen or just don't know yet, will be hurt.

    Neither you nor the preppers (I include myself in that number) are eedeeits. Not one of us have a crystal ball but some of us refuse to take a chance of the well drying up as far as vape supplies. Hope for the best, plan for the worst (in ALL things) JMHO
     

    bigdancehawk

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    In New York City and Suffolk county the age for Tobacco products is 21 and in Nassau County it is 19. So the FDA's Deeming is actually lowering the age?
    No, states and local governments can adopt more stringent restrictions.
     

    Semiretired

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    If the courts don't step in and put a stop to this madness the vape industry as we know it is going to be in a world of hurt.

    Even if the courts step in I doubt the states will remove or not go ahead with the new taxes / internet sales and no matter what that will change the industry.
     

    Bob Chill

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    Even if the courts step in I doubt the states will remove or not go ahead with the new taxes / internet sales and no matter what that will change the industry.

    I find this troubling as well. Even if the regs prove to be temporary then restructured, anything the states cook up and pass beforehand won't magically reverse. Some states passed taxes and restrictions pre-reg already. They can do as they please and will.
     

    bnrkwest

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    There actually were a few people here who Knew the sky wasn't going to fall on Aug 9. Ridicule was heaped upon them by the hand wringers.

    Who's the eedeeits now?

    Bruce in Ocala, Fl
    Shops are closing in FL because of Deeming, just and FIY :)
     
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