Deeming Regulations have been released!!!!

[NolaMel]

Indeed, I fear that I would. But at this point, I think I would try other forms of NRT first. Snus or whatever would probably allow me to retain my sanity without vaping. I know that I really don't want the smoker's cough and chronic bronchitis that I had as a smoker back.


Depends on how you define that word. Yes, I'm dependent on nicotine, just as I'm dependent on caffeine. And if there was talk of banning coffee, I would stockpile green (unroasted) coffee beans as well. But I don't accept that the word "addiction" really applies to either. That word should be used to describe a dependence on something that the continued use of has dire negative consequences. So it might apply to cigarettes, due to the risk of cancer, heart disease, and COPD, as well as the side-effects that I mentioned earlier. It certainly applies to some (but not all) of the "hard drugs" out there. But I don't think it really applies to caffeine, or non-combustible nicotine use.

I don’t think it’s the nicotine. Over the years I’ve had several times I had to go nic free for several weeks at a time. Outside of missing the throat hit, I was fine vaping without nic. The frantic neeeeed to buy another pack of stinkies even when dual using leads me to believe it’s the additives that are addictive. My vaping after the initial quit period has remained at about the same amount of use, with nic lowered over time from 24/18 to 3/6. With stinkies, the number per day kept creeping up and up over the years.

 

[Jazzman]

Equating the addiction to nicotine with vaping to the addiction to cigarettes is apples to oranges. I routinely go without vaping for 8 to 12hrs at a time when I'm working on mission critical issues at a clients place of business without anywhere near the level of discomfort and anxiety of the withdrawals I used to feel from even 1.5hrs of going without a cigarette back in my smoking days. I don't vape at a client site, not even a short break outside the office during work. Yes, I would certainly like to take a vape break, but it's not so compelling a need that I must. I know all the negative pressure from activist groups, politicians, and the FDA has made it so that I really don't want to advertise I'm a vaper to clients and the addiction factor to nicotine is far less than potential harm to my business. That would not be the case if I was still smoking since I would be physically compelled to take regular smoke breaks regardless of business harm.

With smoking there is so much more going on like the additives that weaken the barriers to dopamine delivery that vaping doesn't have (and there are many more additives that "enhance" the smoking experience) that when left with just the nicotine factor remaining it just can't be even reasonably construed to be the same level of addiction. And it shouldn't... because it's not.

As stated earlier in the thread, the FDA has characterized nicotine at the same level of addiction and harm as caffeine for many years, and yet now nicotine is a terrible and harmful thing but coffee is not even a blip on the radar. Where are the new FDA studies that show the reversal of this decades long understanding backed by lots of prior studies and data. Did I miss something truly significant and has the GRAS designation been stripped from nicotine to reflect this?

I think the answer is simple and borders on evil really. It is all political assbaggery and vaping looks like smoking so must not be allowed, regardless of potential and provable benefit.

 

[NolaMel]

Equating the addiction to nicotine with vaping to the addiction to cigarettes is apples to oranges. I routinely go without vaping for 8 to 12hrs at a time when I'm working on mission critical issues at a clients place of business without anywhere near the level of discomfort and anxiety of the withdrawals I used to feel from even 1.5hrs of going without a cigarette back in my smoking days. I don't vape at a client site, not even a short break outside the office during work. Yes, I would certainly like to take a vape break, but it's not so compelling a need that I must. I know all the negative pressure from activist groups, politicians, and the FDA has made it so that I really don't want to advertise I'm a vaper to clients and the addiction factor to nicotine is far less than potential harm to my business. That would not be the case if I was still smoking since I would be physically compelled to take regular smoke breaks regardless of business harm.

With smoking there is so much more going on like the additives that weaken the barriers to dopamine delivery that vaping doesn't have (and there are many more additives that "enhance" the smoking experience) that when left with just the nicotine factor remaining it just can't be even reasonably construed to be the same level of addiction. And it shouldn't... because it's not.

As stated earlier in the thread, the FDA has characterized nicotine at the same level of addiction and harm as caffeine for many years, and yet now nicotine is a terrible and harmful thing but coffee is not even a blip on the radar. Where are the new FDA studies that show the reversal of this decades long understanding backed by lots of prior studies and data. Did I miss something truly significant and has the GRAS designation been stripped from nicotine to reflect this?

I think the answer is simple and borders on evil really. It is all political assbaggery and vaping looks like smoking so must not be allowed, regardless of potential and provable benefit.

Ty, your explanation is much clearer than mine.

 

[Alexander Mundy]

IMO it's the MAO inhibitors.

 

[Rossum]

IMO it's the MAO inhibitors.

I think you're probably correct, in combination with the nic...

 

[Jman8]

Of course it also depends on what is illegal at which point. If high-test nic base is still legal, then cheaper - if not, then possibly sky-high. Although to be frank, I'm not too sure how many people would want to risk going to prison over that 'blissful nic high'. And I'd only have 6 gallons max of unrefrigerated 100mg nic in VG if it looks like that may come to pass, so I couldn't supply EVERYbody.

If we're speaking frankly, I think DIY'ers who aren't dealers, could be in trouble going forward, since their stash would look like a (at least a low-level) dealer. I definitely hope I'm mistaken, but if going after dealers and making a big to-do out of how big of quantity they have, I personally wouldn't want to be in the DIY game for that reason alone. Like anything on the black market, sure there's lots of risk in dealing, but there's risk in hoarding too.

Given the way anti-type propaganda is, you'd almost have to make sure no one knows you're still a vaper, if you're sitting on high quantities of ingredients to make the stuff.

 

[BillW50]

If we're speaking frankly, I think DIY'ers who aren't dealers

DIY'ers ain't dealers, they're manufactures.

 

[Jman8]

No I wasnt presuming that every smoker on earth started in their teens (or early teens), but I don't think we are abnormal in some way.

The reason why the majority of vapers vape is because they are addicted to cigarettes and vaping is the one thing standing between them and another cigarette.

When the question is posed on the forum here most people admit that if vaping wasn't around tommorow they would be smoking tomorrow. This is why a large portion of us on this forum has a vapocalypse box(s) and nicotine in the freezer. So that no matter what happens we can still vape.

We are addicts. And there will be millions smoking again if they take the majority of what's on the market today off.. Between removing all flavors that aren't tobacco, removing all pod systems, and picking and choosing between all that's left leaving only a couple items for sale, what is left to stand between people and cigarettes?

Maybe people will convince themselves they aren't addicted and there wont be millions returning to smoking.. but I beg to differ.

People I guess can judge me if they like and think they are better than me. I don't care.

As someone who enjoys smoking still, I honestly don't get why all of you who now detest smoking would go back? It would be much easier, far more beneficial to just get off of nicotine if you truly hate smoking.

But IMO, that's neither here nor there. It's not here and now occurring, and if the majority of products were taken off the legal market, there would still be a market that exists if you really want to vape. If that other market is too risky for your tastes, then smoking strikes me as a most unwise decision.

Now, as someone that still enjoys smoking, I could see going back. I could also see me vaping via the black market, and dual using to a certain extent. But if I got to the point of full blown smoking addiction (again), I would probably move to going cold turkey at some point (as I have before in my life, 3 times actually).

With what you're conveying, vaping items would have to be not just removed from the market, but from the planet for great numbers of ex-smoking vapers to go back to smoking. I currently find that unfathomable.

I also don't think it would be the result of any physiological addiction, instead I'd see it more as a psychological mind game you'd be playing with yourself. You'd basically be wanting to move to a place where you hate yourself, and want to learn to live with that.

 

[Jman8]

DIY'ers ain't dealers, they're manufactures.

They could be both. They'd certainly appear like both to most non-vapers.

 

[BillW50]

As someone who enjoys smoking still, I honestly don't get why all of you who now detest smoking would go back? It would be much easier, far more beneficial to just get off of nicotine if you truly hate smoking... You'd basically be wanting to move to a place where you hate yourself, and want to learn to live with that.

I quit smoking from 1980 to 1990 and I looked back and asked myself in 1990 if it was worth it? And I said no, I was miserable for those years! So I started smoking again.

 

[Jazzman]

As someone who enjoys smoking still, I honestly don't get why all of you who now detest smoking would go back? It would be much easier, far more beneficial to just get off of nicotine if you truly hate smoking.

Just a differing point of view, I like my nic as I like a cup of coffee in the morning. Nic has not proven harmful or unsafe as far as the FDA is concerned so why not. I also like the act of hand to mouth and inhaling and exhaling something akin to smoke. Relaxing and flavorful. This is especially true when stuck for 2 hrs on SoCal freeways, which is also when I smoked most. So for me? Not giving up nic or vaping. Both are valuable for me.

Point being, vaping is a lot more to me than just nic alone. And I want the whole package unless we find out there are compelling health reasons not to vape.

For smoking and going back? Never... not a chance. Even if that meant I had to quit vaping for some odd reason like it was now a capital offense or something.

 

[ScottP]

If we're speaking frankly, I think DIY'ers who aren't dealers, could be in trouble going forward, since their stash would look like a (at least a low-level) dealer. I definitely hope I'm mistaken, but if going after dealers and making a big to-do out of how big of quantity they have, I personally wouldn't want to be in the DIY game for that reason alone. Like anything on the black market, sure there's lots of risk in dealing, but there's risk in hoarding too.

Given the way anti-type propaganda is, you'd almost have to make sure no one knows you're still a vaper, if you're sitting on high quantities of ingredients to make the stuff.

Well, unless you are driving around with your stash in your car and get pulled over and searched, no one will know. I mean how often do police come to your house and raid your freezer? I can tell you the number for me is zero. So unless they start going door to door doing random freezer checks, I have zero concerns. If they ever get to that point, we will have a lot bigger problems than vaping since that would mean they have destroyed the Constitution. Not to mention, possession is not a crime and there has been no indication that it ever will be.

 

[Alexander Mundy]

The FDA has stated that their authority granted by Congress does not extend to DIY as long as "Y" = yourself and even more specifically that DIY is not a manufacturer.

 

[mikepetro]

If we're speaking frankly, I think DIY'ers who aren't dealers, could be in trouble going forward, since their stash would look like a (at least a low-level) dealer. I definitely hope I'm mistaken, but if going after dealers and making a big to-do out of how big of quantity they have, I personally wouldn't want to be in the DIY game for that reason alone. Like anything on the black market, sure there's lots of risk in dealing, but there's risk in hoarding too.

Given the way anti-type propaganda is, you'd almost have to make sure no one knows you're still a vaper, if you're sitting on high quantities of ingredients to make the stuff.

Only if they made "possession" a crime. To my knowledge, they are only restricting "sales".

 

[Rossum]

The FDA has stated that their authority granted by Congress does not extend to DIY as long as "Y" = yourself and even more specifically that DIY is not a manufacturer.

Correct. Just like they won't allow you to sell raw milk, but they won't stop you from consuming it if you have a cow. Ditto when it comes to tobacco; it's completely legal to grow and cure for personal consumption.

 

[440BB]

I think the idea of freezer police has some traction. Perhaps a new Law & Order spinoff!

 

[CMD-Ky]

I think the idea of freezer police has some traction. Perhaps a new Law & Order spinoff!

Please spare me, not another.

 

[Opinionated]

As someone who enjoys smoking still

You do whatever you want and think whatever you want. I don't care.

when people in this thread are happy to start thinking they are better than everyone else is always a good time for me to leave the discussion.

Good luck to you.

 

[DaveP]

Well, unless you are driving around with your stash in your car and get pulled over and searched, no one will know. I mean how often do police come to your house and raid your freezer? I can tell you the number for me is zero. So unless they start going door to door doing random freezer checks, I have zero concerns. If they ever get to that point, we will have a lot bigger problems than vaping since that would mean they have destroyed the Constitution. Not to mention, possession is not a crime and there has been no indication that it ever will be.

Agree.

I don't see DIY vape juice as a problem going forward any more than those who make Wine and other alcoholic concoctions at home for their own use. Nic in the freezer is a hedge against the government outlawing vendor vape juice. Flavors are mostly sold for cooking and flavoring dessert concoctions. If tobacco flavorings go away I'm happy with my unflavored mixes to satisfy my desire to replicate smoking.

After all, in case someone asks, my 100mg/ml nic stash is there to create a diluted home remedy for killing fire ant mounds in the yard.

 

[stols001]

I believe it may be time for THIS VIDEO:



Anna